CALVINISM VS. THE BIBLE

October 2004

 
I attended a Presbyterian Church for over 10 years.  This was the first Church we were actively involved with.   A friend of mine who is in preaching school, Jason Hilburn, furnished an outline of Scripture for me to study which refutes the Presbyterian doctrine of Calvinism.  You may be familiar with the five points of Calvinism and/or the Westminster Confession of Faith.  I briefly studied the passages but did not understand most of what I read, or was unsure of the meaning.  I decided to have a member of the Presbyterian Church review the outline and advise me what he thought.  I will refer to him as Mr. Calvin.  I told him that it was furnished to me for study and that it appeared the Presbyterian doctrine might have some problems.  Basically we swapped a few e-mails and several weeks later he provided me with a lengthy response.  During this time of waiting on him to respond, I had the opportunity to do some in depth study of my own.  I studied like I have never studied before.  After I received his response, I started responding back, as I was responding I was also studying more and more.  Below is the discussion between us.  So that you can understand who wrote what below…

 
The initial outline is in this font, dark blue.  There was very little commentary.  Jason simply gave me the book, chapter, and verse, and suggested I study it.

 
Mr. Calvin’s response is in this type font, black.  He added the passages for the outline himself and then made a comment in most cases.  You will have to read past the passages to see his comments.  He also added more scripture on several occasions, in an attempt to support his belief’s.

 
My response is in this type font.  All the passages I quote are from my e-sword Bible software…example…

Psa 118:8  It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

  
Now we begin…

I know I have thanked you a couple of times already but I want to thank you again for taking the time to look over and respond to the outline that was provided.  As I mentioned previously in my immediate e-mail reply to your response to the outline, I have been studying day and night to try and better understand what God’s way is, and what it will take for me to glorify Him.  I have quickly learned there is no way for me to know it all in a matter of days or even a few weeks, but I have definitely been on a mission to know God’s way.  I briefly studied the Scripture outline before I presented it to you and I have studied it in depth since then, not to even begin to mention the other Scripture that I have studied in depth.  I have reviewed and studied your responses with eagerness and with a desire to hopefully better understand the Scriptures.  My days and nights have been quite occupied in studying Scripture and writing responses to your comments.  I have not stopped since I received it back from you.  Every time that I thought I was ready to send you my response, I had studied more Scripture and wanted to go back and write more.  I know I could go on and on and on… but I think I have said plenty for now.  I will say that I have some serious doubts concerning your opinion of most of the Scripture that you discussed.  I am not going to say that my understanding is perfect, yet I know that I have raised some good questions and made some valid points in response to what you have written.  On a few Scriptures that I had trouble with I did inquire to a few others to seek their thoughts on those, just like I have done so with you.  I have also read some commentary, although as I stated previously to you, it is hard to find two commentaries that totally agree as they are subjective for the most part.  For the majority though, I stuck with referencing my Interlinear Bible and e-sword program with several translations.  I have also reviewed the Westminster Confession of Faith and a few lectureships, and even studied some secular history material tobetter understand denominational history and the meaning of the word “baptism” during the early church days. 

Although I may be quite blunt with a sarcastic tone occasionally, please understand it is not my intentions to create a hostile relationship with you.  I truly hope you believe this.  My comments and questions will be inserted after various sections and will be in this light brown color.  Bold emphasis and underlining is by me on several passages that I have copied and pasted from my e-sword program.  I hope that we can continue to discuss these points and come to a mutual understanding.  I trust you will read this in its entirety.  It may be wise to do so then comment afterwards if you so desire.  By the way… you might want to turn off your spelling and grammar check while reading to avoid the numerous underlined errors… if you find this distracting.  I did my best on grammar and spellchecked but much of the Scripture has words not in the dictionary and grammar errors itself, especially the King James Version passages. 

You are obviously biased towards the Presbyterian doctrine which is reasoned by the fact you have studied this doctrine for many years.  I suppose this is to be expected… just as Methodist, Baptist, Pentecostal, etc., are biased towards their own man-made, unauthorized, and uninspired doctrines.  I prefer not to be bias towards any doctrine other than what has been written, authorized, and inspired by God… the doctrine which was delivered by Jesus, His apostles, and through God’s Word.  I pray that we will both have an open mind (heart) and put doctrines of men aside and focus solely on the Scriptures.  I pray that the following passages will be applied to both of us as we continue this discussion…

Eph 1:17  That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Eph 1:18  The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Eph 1:19  And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,

The center of God’s Word:

Psa 118:8  It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

Hopefully we can keep these verses in prayer and at heart.

God is no respecter of persons

          I Pet. 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: KJV

          1PE 1:17 ¶ If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; NASB-u

          This verse seems to indicate that God judges each person without regard to their station or position in life, that He views each person on the same basis whether they are Jews, Gentiles, males, females, Old Testament, New Testament, etc.  Each person is judged on whether they are righteous before God based on His standard of perfection.  The same principle is mentioned in GAL 2:6 “But from those who were of high reputation (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality) -- well, those who were of reputation contributed nothing to me.” And also 1TI 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.  ROM 10:11-13 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed."  For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."  God does not judge on the basis of who we are, but rather on the basis of who we are depending on to save us.  If we depend on our own works or the works of another person, we are held to the standard of perfection and will necessarily fall short.  The only way anyone can be saved is by depending on Christ for salvation, the only One who lived a perfectly sinful life, the only One who measured up to the standard of perfection.  Notice that it says that they will be saved if they “call on the name of the Lord” and “believe in Him,” without reference to baptism.

The point of God not being a respecter of persons in connection with 1 Peter 1:17 and similarly in Galatians 2:6, is to point out that God does not show partiality and has not already chosen us as individuals to be saved.  God knows who will be saved but allows us to choose our own path.  He indeed already knows the choice we will make, but He does not miraculously cause us to make that choice nor does He compel us to make a choice.  I believe God searches our hearts and minds and He test us and gives to us according to our own ways…

Jer 17:10  I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

If we seek Him, He will let us find Him…

1Ch 28:9  And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

It would not make much sense if He had already elected us individually that we would need to seek Him.  God also tells Solomon to serve Him with a “willing mind.”  This tells us that we must be “willing” to serve God and this would require effort on our part.

You wrote, "He views each person on the same basis whether they are Jews, Gentiles, males, females, Old Testament, New Testament, etc." and quoted Romans 10:11, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed."  If He views each person on the same basis then why would He choose one over the other?  Considering “whoever believes”… would that not include everyone that believes?  It does not say “whoever I choose to force to believe”.  You will need a “license” to change those words.  If God compels us to believe then He basically believes for us and we really are not doing anything.  Why would He do that and what Scripture says that He does?  He does not do this and no Scripture says He does… in fact the Scriptures say the opposite.  Now… you say there is no “reference to baptism” in Romans 10:11-13… neither is there any  reference to God already having chose individuals who will believe.  If we consider the context of Romans chapter 10 we learn that there actually is a reference to baptism connected to those verses which is more than you can say for God choosing us or forcing us to believe.  Let’s read the connection for baptism…

Rom 10:16  But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Paul references the need for preachers but the bottom line is they have not all obeyed the gospel.  Consider…

2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1Pe 1:22  Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

1Pe 4:17  For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and we learn how to obey the death, burial, and resurrection (baptism), in Romans chapter 6…

Rom 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Rom 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Of course I know towards the end you reference this as obedience after we are saved.  I will discuss this later in much greater detail.

I would gather from your comments above that you believe that whoever believes and calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.  Wouldn’t this require us to do something… of course it would.  Later on you will say that we can not contribute anything other than the “need”, or “sin”.  Yet here it appears you believe we must at least believe and call on the name of the Lord.  Either way… I believe that we must believe and call on the name of the Lord.  However, I do not believe that this is all it takes to be saved, and it is apparent we do not have the same understanding of what believing and calling on the name of the Lord mean.  Let’s go back to Romans 10:9-10 again…

Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 

No doubt here that confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord would be included for salvation as well.  This confession is referenced by Jesus in Matthew 10, by Paul in his 2^nd letter to Timothy, and in 1 John we also read that we must confess the Son and what that confession is…

Mat 10:32  Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

2Ti 2:19  Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

1Jo 2:23  Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

1Jo 4:15  Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

I believe a good example of confession is when the eunuch confessed in Acts 8:37…

Act 8:35  Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same Scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

Act 8:36  And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

Act 8:37  And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Act 8:38  And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Act 8:39  And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

The eunuch believed and confessed.  I also see that for some reason the eunuch appeared to be more concerned with water baptism than anything else.  Of course Phillip explained that there would be nothing stopping him as long as he believed as we must believe before we can be baptized.  Obviously the eunuch had been taught by someone that he must have a repentant heart (as I will discuss next) and that confession must be made as well because he clearly confesses.  Now think about your doctrine’s theory of the Holy Spirit having a miraculous direct influence on us thereby forcing us to be saved.  Why would the Holy Spirit miraculously force the Eunuch to think about water and baptism?  From your assumptions I would gather that believing and calling on the name of the Lord is what the Holy Spirit compels us to do… not think about baptism.  But then again, we would be doing something and we can not do anything according to your doctrine.  Would Phillip, who we know was under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, not have taught the Eunuch that baptism was not necessary?  Your doctrine would have the Holy Spirit being inconsistent.  I can see how most that follow your doctrine would say that it is hard to fully understand.

Going back to Romans 10:9-13, something else was left out as well… this would be “repentance”.  So do you believe that someone can be saved without repenting?  We are commanded to repent… and unless we repent we will “perish”, as we can clearly read in the Scriptures…

Luk 13:3, 5  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Mar 1:15  And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Act 17:30  And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

I know you will say that God forces us repent.  Although Jesus clearly tells us to do something and God commands everyone everywhere to repent, you still think He compels us to repent?  Hmmm… that is very interesting although it is a false doctrine.  I will discuss this later.  Continuing on… let’s look at Romans 10:10 again… “believeth unto righteousness” and “confession is made unto salvation”.  We see that both phrases include the word “unto”.  It is apparent that “unto” means “resulting in”, and this is a very important word throughout the Scriptures… here is the NASB translation…

Rom 10:9  that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Rom 10:10  for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

It is clear that believing with the heart and confessing with the mouth results in salvation.  To be absolutely sure on the word “unto”, I looked to Strong’s and Thayer’s…

eis

A primary preposition; to or into (indicating the point reached or entered), of place, time, or (figuratively) purpose (result, towards, for, etc.)

So we can conclude that “calling on the name of the Lord” would include believing and confessing… but is that all it includes?  Nope!  Not according to Scripture.  Let’s look at that Scripture… Looking at verse 13 we agree that it says, “For¹⁰⁶³ whosoever^{3956, 3739, 302} shall call upon¹⁹⁴¹ the³⁵⁸⁸ name³⁶⁸⁶ of the Lord²⁹⁶² shall be saved.^4982”, and as you claim, “without reference to baptism”.  Note that “call upon” has a Strong’s definition reference #1941 in verse 13.  With this verse in mind let’s look at a couple of examples of what calling on the name of the Lord is.  Peter referenced this right before he preached the first gospel message on the day of Pentecost…

Act 2:21  And²⁵³² it shall come to pass,²⁰⁷¹ that whosoever^{3956, 3739, 302} shall call on¹⁹⁴¹ the³⁵⁸⁸ name³⁶⁸⁶ of the Lord²⁹⁶² shall be saved.⁴⁹⁸²

On that same day, right after he preached this first gospel message, the people who had just crucified Jesus ask Peter what they must do.  Peter instructed these people how they were to call on the name of the Lord…

Act 2:37  Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Act 2:38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Well, there certainly is a reference to baptism with Peter’s explanation of calling on the name of the Lord.  Peter did not tell them specifically to call on the name of the Lord, or to pray to receive Christ, or to simply believe.  He did not even mention confessing here.  Now let’s look at the how Paul was saved.  I am sure you are familiar with the story that starts back in Acts 9 and Paul recaps it in chapter 22… and it concludes with his salvation…

Act 22:6  And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.

Act 22:7  And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Act 22:8  And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.

Act 22:9  And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

Act 22:10  And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.

Act 22:11  And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.

Act 22:12  And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,

Act 22:13  Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.

Act 22:14  And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

Act 22:15  For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

Act 22:16  And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Act 22:16  'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'

Paul asked the question here, “What shall I do, Lord?”  The Lord told him to go to Damascus and he would be told what he needed to do.  There was obviously something he had to do.  He did not tell Paul to pray to Him, or confess Him, or even believe on Him, nor did He tell Paul to call on His name.  However, I believe it is obvious that Paul believed (had faith) or he would not have done what the Lord commanded him to do, just like Noah or Abraham would not have obeyed what God commanded them to do if they had not believed.  Still we do not read (previously or in this recap) that he must believe, confess, or repent; we can only assume he obviously did because we have already read Scripture that clearly states we must believe, confess, and repent, to be saved.  One point to be made here is that every example or instruction we read pertaining to salvation in the Scriptures may not include every necessary element.  Clearly, even though Paul believed, he was not yet saved because his sins had not been forgiven nor had he completely called on the name of the Lord, as you have indicated we would need to do.  Ananias asked Paul, “Now why do you delay?” and told him what he needed to do… “Get up and be baptized, wash away your sins, calling on the His name.”  Therefore we learn that washing away our sins by baptism is part of calling on the name of the Lord.  To further prove the point...

Act 22:16  And²⁵³² now³⁵⁶⁸ why⁵¹⁰¹ tarriest³¹⁹⁵ thou? arise,⁴⁵⁰ and be baptized,⁹⁰⁷ and²⁵³² wash away⁶²⁸ thy⁴⁶⁷⁵ sins,²⁶⁶ calling on¹⁹⁴¹ the³⁵⁸⁸ name³⁶⁸⁶ of the³⁵⁸⁸ Lord.²⁹⁶²

The phrase “calling on” in Acts 2:38 and 22:16 has the same Strong’s reference #1941 as Romans 10:13.  All have the same definition, yet reference different responses.  And again, we see that baptism is referenced.

From these passages it is clear that calling on the name of the Lord would include hearing, believing, repenting, confessing, and even washing away our sins by baptism.  The language, “calling on the name of the Lord” wherever used, implies coming to the Lord and calling on Him in His appointed way.  I think we can conclude that we are not saved by “grace only” but by our work of calling on the Lord.  With your own words you have pretty much tossed out the possibility of your so-called “election” theory too.  Unless of course you were simply trying to point out that baptism is not necessary and did not mean to prove that “irresistible grace” and  “unconditional election” are false doctrines. 

I want to go back to the point I made about every example or instruction of salvation we read of in the Scriptures not including every element required of us to be saved.  We should recognize a basic understanding of scriptural interpretation… just because one particular verse or passage does not address a particular element (i.e., baptism), does not negate those passages that do address those elements.  Consider these verses…

Phi 2:12  Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Act 2:40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Would it be fair to conclude from these passages that I can save myself or that my works save me?  Think about it… “grace” is not mentioned in either of these two verses.  I would not assume that these verses teach us that we can simply save ourselves or that they teach salvation by meritorious works simply because neither mention grace.  We must consider all of the Scripture that relates to salvation in order to learn God’s plan of salvation… including these.  We can not simply throw out a verse just because it does not address a particular subject or element of salvation.  If we use the tactic of quoting a verse and saying that it does not mention baptism, therefore it is not necessary, we violate the nature of Scripture and God’s revelation to all mankind.  I will be discussing much more on works from time to time, but let’s clear it up right now… no matter what you think I believe, I do not believe I can earn my way into heaven by my own merit.

You should also understand that in Romans 10:9-10, Paul is explaining why Israel had failed to be justified by faith.  This passage identifies those specific elements of “the faith” that were preventing Israel from responding with faith.  Israel did not accept or depend on Jesus and refused to believe and confess Him.  Since salvation is available to all who will call upon the Lord, to all who will trust in Him, even the Israelites would be saved if they would overcome these obstacles and respond to Jesus with their heart and their lips.  Consider where Paul got this passage from…

Deu 30:11  For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

Deu 30:12  It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

Deu 30:13  Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

Deu 30:14  But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Paul knew Israel would recognize what he was preaching to them by using these passages.  He wanted them to understand the necessity that the righteousness that comes through “the faith” requires them to believe the gospel in their hearts and confess Jesus with their lips.  They had failed to respond to the gospel in faith.  Paul’s purpose here was not to teach all the necessary elements of obeying the gospel but rather to point out specifically what their particular hang up was.

            1PE 1:22-25 ¶ Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.  For, "All flesh is like grass, And all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, And the flower falls off, but the word of the Lord endures forever." And this is the word which was preached to you.

          I’m not sure how this relates to the subject of God is no respecter of persons.  Bear in mind what is said between these two selections, i.e.,

          1PE 1:18-21 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.  For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.  {my emphasis)

There are a couple of points here.  In order to purify our souls we must obey the truth: “you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls”.  The Word of God is what was preached to them and “through” it, which is the “seed”, they obeyed the truth and were born again.  If they had not obeyed the truth, would they have purified their souls?  We can learn from this Scripture how they purified their souls and also how the Word of God was delivered to them.  I agree that we are bought with the blood of Christ and that believing (faith) is essential for salvation.  I will discuss this in more detail later.  Consider these next three passages…

1Jo 3:1  Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1Jo 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1Jo 3:3  And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

1Pe 1:22  Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

1Pe 1:23  Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Rom 8:24  For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

Rom 8:25  But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Now consider the relationship between salvation, self-purification, and hope, which we see in these passages.  Imagine the theology we could “develop” based on treating Romans 8:24 in the same manner as “saved by faith (alone)” and “saved by grace (alone)”.  The Scriptures reveal the way in which we purify ourselves in obedience to the truth, yet it is God who purifies us by His grace.

            EPH 6:9 ¶ And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.  This seems to say the same thing as the previous verse.

Eph 6:5  Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ;

Eph 6:6  not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.

Eph 6:7  With good will render service, as to the Lord, and not to men,

Eph 6:8  knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free.

Eph 6:9  And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.

In context this Scripture shows us that there is mutual good will and mutual service between God and men.  God is going to treat us all the same, according to what we do while here on earth.

            ACT 10:34 ¶ Opening his mouth, Peter said: ¶ "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”  Remember the context of this statement.  Peter had been called to the home of a Gentile, Cornelius, and to go was considered a sin by Jews.  A Jew could not enter the home of a Gentile (which is why the representatives of the Sanhedrin met Pontius Pilate outside on the “pavement” to accuse Jesus rather than going inside.)  When he arrived and proclaimed the gospel the assembled Gentiles not only believed, but they began speaking in tongues.  Peter immediately recognized this as a sign that the Holy Spirit had baptized and filled these people since he had seen and experienced the same thing on Pentecost.  In essence he is saying in this verse that now he understands that God saves not only Jews, but Gentiles also.  This verse is similar to two other passages, ROM 2:9-11 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.  For there is no partiality with God.” And ROM 3:21-24 ¶ But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;” and COL 3:11 a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.

I am familiar with the story or Cornelius and his family and the fact they were Gentiles, not Jews.  I recall the story of how Peter saw the vision of the unclean animals and the voice spoke to him.  This was to point out that Peter would be sent to preach to the Gentiles, and that God was not partial to the Jews only, and he should indeed preach to the Gentiles.  I will be discussing this again in much greater detail when you bring it up the second time.  I believe here and in the verses in Ephesians, Romans, and in Colossians above and below, all point out how God does not show partiality, that anyone can be saved.  If he does not show partiality then why would He have already chosen us as individuals to be saved?  Ultimately, these verses would not agree with your doctrine in several ways, of which I will discuss as I continue.

Let’s take a closer look at Romans 2 that you mentioned and add verse 8 (that you seem to have conveniently omitted) to verses 9-11…

Rom 2:8  But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Rom 2:9  Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Rom 2:10  But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Rom 2:11  For there is no respect of persons with God.

Those that “do not obey the truth” will receive God’s wrath.  However “to every man that worketh good”, he will receive “glory, honour, and peace”.  Does God make us “not obey the truth” even if we want to or is it that if we are not of the so-called “elect” then we will not want to obey the truth?  Why would we receive “glory, honour, and peace” for doing something God forces us to do?  I know… it does not make much sense does it.  It is in our obedience that we glorify God and honor the sacrifice of Christ, thus we enjoy peace with God.

You also quoted Romans 3:21-24 above...

Rom 3:21  But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

Rom 3:22  even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

Rom 3:23  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Rom 3:24  being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

This clearly says we receive “grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:”.  Now how do we get “in Christ Jesus”?  I believe we can find the answer to this question easily with the following Scripture…

Rom 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Rom 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

1Co 12:13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Gal 3:27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Col 2:12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

This Scripture leaves us with no doubt that we are baptized into Christ.  Of course, as I stated earlier, I know later you will say that Paul is simply talking about obedience after we are saved in Romans chapter 6.  It already does not look so good for your assumption, but I will discuss that in detail when I get to that point and a little before then.  As a side note on Romans 3:22… the Manuscripts actually say “faith of Jesus Christ” not “faith in Jesus Christ”.  There is an important difference which I will discuss later as well… and I suspect you already agree with me.

            COL 3:25 For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality.”  The same standard applies to every person, i.e., perfection.

If God has predestined us as individuals then it would appear to me that He has shown partiality.  If we are rewarded in heaven or receive the consequences for the things we have done here on earth, yet God has forced us to do all these things, (as Mr. Presbyterian preahcer suggested that because of God’s sovereignty He causes all things to happen), how is it that it matters what we do?  We can just sit back and relax, waiting until He makes us do something?  It sounds like to me you are suggesting we are mere robots or puppets.  Either way, your doctrine is saying that it is God’s choice to make us do what we do… we have no control over it.  God sure has wasted a lot of inspiration on the Scriptures if your doctrine is true. 

Consider that love is active, not passive, and it must be displayed in order to be realized.  The love of God is so profound that He had to create us with the absolute free will to choose to love Him in return.  Consider the following passages and the necessity of mankind acting freely to “complete” or “perfect” the love of God by returning that love in loving obedience to Him…

Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 14:15  If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh 14:23  Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

1Jo 2:3  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jo 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jo 2:5  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

            JAM 2:2-9  “For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes, and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the fine clothes, and say, "You sit here in a good place," and you say to the poor man, "You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool," have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil motives?  Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?  But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court?  Do they not blaspheme the fair name by which you have been called?  If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well.  But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.”

          The sin rebuked in this passage is the sin of treating one believer as if her were better than another, something that is reiterated in a different application in 1PE 3:7 “You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.”  The same principle is found in 1TI 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.”  I believe that this indicates that we are to recognize that God wants us to recognize that every person who is saved has been saved on the basis of the righteousness of Christ, not on the basis of personal effort.  As a result we should not treat any believer as a second class citizen of the kingdom. 

It is also instructive to note the next verse in James:

JAM 2:10 “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.”   If we are talking about salvation requiring some sort of work or merit on our part, this verse says that the standard is perfect obedience.  Keeping some or even most of the commandments is not enough.  If I have violated one commandment, then I am just as guilty as if I had violated all of them.

Just as God does not want us to judge others with evil motives, He does not judge us with evil motives… whether saved or not.  I do not see that any of this Scripture would indicate that there is no personal effort on our part to be saved.  I do not believe that we can earn our way into heaven and I discussed this briefly earlier but will discuss it in more detail later.  Ultimately I believe you are confusing works of God (works of faith) which are part of obeying the gospel and is not mentioned in James 2:10, with works of the Law, which is referenced in James 2:10.  The principle is in regard to the Law of Moses, not the “perfect law of liberty”…

Jam 2:12  So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Jam 1:21  Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Jam 1:22  But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Jam 1:23  For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

Jam 1:24  For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

Jam 1:25  But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

The “engrafted word” is “able to save” our souls… and will do so for those who “hear” and “do”.  Why would James tell us to “do” and then render the “doing’ irrelevant and ultimately condemning?  James is not teaching that if we are baptized and then subsequently sin, as we all do, then we are condemned by our failure to keep all the commandments flawlessly.  What you are saying is that if we are not baptized then we are not trying to keep the Law and therefore we will be “in grace”.  You are distorting the Scriptures in an attempt to claim they teach against something that we are not even addressing.  After we are saved we try not to sin but we will definitely sin periodically.  We both understand that John deals with this in the following verses…

1Jo 1:6  If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1Jo 1:7  But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Jo 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jo 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jo 1:10  If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

If grace only, then what about:

          ACT 11:18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."  I am confused about this reference as it relates the topic, because it says that God grants repentance.  We don’t generate it ourselves.  That is the central point of Grace.  These Jewish believers realized that God had extended the gospel to those who did not know and had made no effort to keep the law that God Himself had given to Moses for Israel.”  This is very similar to Peter’s realization when he was visiting Cornelius in Acts 10:34 above.

Act 11:18  When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Luke was recording Peter’s defense to the Jewish Christians about why it was okay for Cornelius and his family, who were Gentiles, to be saved.  Peter and the Jews did not believe the Gentiles could be saved even if they repented because they believed salvation was for the Jews only, a select few, just like those who believe in your doctrine suggest.  God convinced Peter and the Jews that the Gentiles could indeed also receive salvation, just like anyone else has an opportunity to do so.  God just hasn’t convinced people following your doctrine of this yet.  Sad indeed.  God gave His only begotten Son for “every man” and the “whole world”…

Heb 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

1Jo 2:1  My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1Jo 2:2  And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Peter explaining that God had also granted repentance to the Gentiles was Peter’s realization that God had fulfilled His promise to Abraham to bless all people through Abraham’s descendant (Jesus).  The point would include that not only is repentance and salvation for the Jews and not just for the so-called individual elect,  or a limited number, and not unconditionally, but for everyone who “does the will of the father” and “obeys the gospel”, as I will discuss shortly.  I do not suggest that salvation is not according to God’s grace, but, like “faith” or even “baptism”, we can not insert the word “only” or “alone” after it.  Repentance is required for grace to abound in me or you, or anyone else, and we could not repent unless we believe in God or His promises.  Consider also the fact that the Jews said, …”Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.”  Focusing on the “repentance unto life” and “also to the Gentiles”, we learn that from this point in history, the gospel would be preached to all people and forgiveness granted to those who obey the gospel.  We must repent (obey) but it is no good unless it is recognized by God (grace).

            2CO 7:10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.”  Once again the sorrow that leads to salvation is according to the will of God, not the will of man. 

The NASB version adds “the will of” (which is really a thought of mere man and not inspired of God) and their placement of the phrase might lead us to a misunderstanding of this verse, especially if we only consider the one verse out of context and read only that one translation.  I do not see it quite the same as you do, although similarly, there is a difference.  If we study the Manuscripts on this passage it will make much more sense to us.  I prefer the KJV which in my opinion more accurately reflects the Manuscripts with this verse, although not perfectly…

2Co 7:8  For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season.

2Co 7:9  Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

2Co 7:10  For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

In these verses we see two kinds of sorrow, godly sorrow and worldly sorrow.  Godly sorrow is realizing we have sinned against God; we love God and are sorry for our sins.  This type of sorrow will cause us to repent.  God is not causing us to repent; our sorrow according to God is causing us to repent.  God did not make the Corinthians repent; the epistle that Paul wrote caused them to grieve, as we learn in verse 8, however it did not force them to grieve.  Paul states that he almost regrets sending the letter but even if he did regret it, he is rejoicing because it grieved them to repentance (after all it is the inspired Word of God which is able to “save our souls”). In the Manuscripts “grieved according to God” is what is literally translated in verses 8 and 9, and “according to God grief” is literally translated in verse 10.  Godly sorrow is what we should have and it “worketh” or accomplishes repentance that leads to salvation.  Worldly sorrow is uh-oh, I wish I had not got in trouble, or I wish I had not done that, or too bad I got caught.  This kind of sorrow will not cause us to repent but rather regret.  In verse 9 it is clear that Paul is saying “you sorrowed in keeping with God’s will.”  God wants everyone to have godly sorrow; this is His will as we can see in 2 Peter…

2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So, when we repent, we are doing what God’s will is… what He so desires… what He wants us to do… we are repenting according to the will of God, or because of sorrow according to God, and not because He makes us.  It would not make sense that God would want “all” men to repent and then compel only a select group to repent, in light of what the Scriptures tell us.  The truth is that if I choose to repent I will then be doing the will of God, or a work of God.  This is part of doing the will of God and obeying the gospel.  Think about what you are saying Mr. Calvin, in consideration of the above verses.  If God wants “all” men to repent, which He clearly does according to 2 Peter 3:9 (I do not see how you could understand it any differently), and He does not give us a choice (as your doctrine suggest) then He is going to cause “all” men to repent.  We know this cannot be so because very clearly we know that the majority will not be saved, but rather only a “few”, as you will mention later and I will discuss later as well.  I think your partiality to your doctrine and the NASB translation is influencing your misunderstanding of this Scripture. 

See ROM 9:14-18 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!  For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.  For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth."  So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.”

Before I discuss Romans… consider these two verses…

Mat 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Heb 5:9  And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

vs. this verse…

2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Does God contradict Himself when He says He will have mercy on those that do His will and obey Him in the first two verses and then He says He will have vengeance on those who do not obey Him in the latter verse?  He will have mercy on those that do His will and obey Him, but if someone questions His judgment on this (as Paul is raising the possible objection), then He will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.  Furthermore, I do not believe we can simply pick up at Romans 9:14 and use a couple of verses to support and proclaim “irresistible grace” and “unconditional election”.  We should consider these verses within the context of several other passages of Romans as well as other passages in the Bible.  Let’s consider the 2 verses prior to the ones you quoted…

Rom 9:12  It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

Rom 9:13  As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

We know these are two nations He is referencing not individual babies… Jacob’s descendants who obeyed God, and Esau’s descendants, (the Edomites), who left God.  We learn about them from Genesis…

Gen 25:23  And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

Even though God knew how each nation would be and what each nation would do, He did not make them be the way they were.  God said He loved Jacob and hated Esau, but when did He say it?  It was not until after the Edomites had shown that they were disobedient and some 1400 years later that God stated He hated Esau.  We find God’s statement concerning this in Malachi…

Mal 1:1  The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.

Mal 1:2  I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,

Mal 1:3  And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

Esau lived his life profane and a fornicator and this along with the Edomites rebellion towards God is why He loved them less…

Heb 12:16  Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

The same word “hate” is found in Luke that is found in Romans 9…

Luk 14:26  If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Is Jesus teaching that a true disciple of Christ will hate his parents?  Of course not!  The definition for the Greek word “hated” means “esteem less” or “love less”.  A true disciple will love Jesus above his parents or above his family, or any material possession.  In the same way, God loved Jacob more than Esau and blessed the world with Jesus through Jacob instead of Esau, in spite of Esau’s birthright.  God did this because of His omniscience.  His foreknowledge allowed Him to see the life of Jacob and Esau, thus He chose to use Jacob because of “things to come”…

Heb 11:20  By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

God further chose to reveal a portion of what He foreknew to Rebekah when He foretold of the two nations in her womb (Genesis 25:23 above).  Esau’s life followed the path that God had foreseen and Esau despised his birthright (Hebrews 12:16 above).  Then the Edomites followed the path that God had foreseen.  God’s “election” of Jacob was not pre-determined destiny, but rather points to Paul’s statement that factors other than fleshly descent had always been God’s way of determining who would be the descendants of Abraham.  God’s election was a factor that entered into the determination as a consequence of other factors, which He foreknew.  If Esau had been chosen instead of Jacob, the generations of people would not have lasted until the Messiah was delivered at the fullness of time, and God foreknew this.  That is why God spoke of the “nations” and “manner of people” in Rebekah’s womb.  The providence of our all-knowing God intervened in the affairs of men, not in determining the destinies of these two men, but rather which of the two would be patriarch of the “children of Abraham”.  So, in Romans 9:14, Paul turns to God’s righteousness (justice) in dealing with mankind.  This is the major focus of the entire letter to the Romans.  Your doctrine of “unconditional election” and “irresistible grace” actually argue against God’s justice and righteousness.  They leave no room for justification by faith, which Paul clearly asserts…

Rom 5:1  Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

God’s justice and mercy are shown in that He displays His mercy upon those who come to Him in simple, trusting, obedient faith.  In the same way, He withholds mercy from the profane people of the earth.  God’s statement to Moses (Exodus 33:19) quoted by Paul in Romans 9 asserts the truth that there is just and rational foundation for everything God does.  This does not teach that God is unpredictable in extending mercy and grace.  God knows the heart, and His “election” is based on what is within us, as we can learn from the following…

Gen 18:19  For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

Joh 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Joh 12:48  He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Joh 12:49  For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Joh 12:50  And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Heb 4:11  Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Heb 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Heb 4:13  Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Heb 4:14  Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

This applies to the “elect in Christ” just as it did to Abraham and Jacob.  Today, God saves those who hear His Word and do as He says.  It is still grace, but it is justice in love, as well as God allows whosoever will come, to receive His free gift.  Romans 9:16 teaches us that Jews are not entitled to salvation just because they were born Jews, just as we are not saved because we “will it” or because meritorious work (“he that runs”) forces God to save us.  We are saved because God is just, merciful, gracious, honorable, trustworthy, and He will do as He has promised.  I plan to explain this in a little different way later.  God said what He did to Moses because Moses asked to see His glory.  God let him see it but it was not because He was obligated by the request, but rather He chose to do so.  Moses glimpse of glory was not by merit, but by grace.  Now… concerning Pharaoh…

Rom 9:17  For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Rom 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Notice first of all that God did not raise up Pharaoh to destroy him, He raised him up to show His power through him.  Exactly how this was done was up to the free will of Pharaoh.  It could have been by submission to God or by rebellion to God… either way, God’s power and glory was going to be displayed all over the world through Pharaoh.  As far as Pharaoh’s heart, God hardened it by commanding him to do things that he did not want to do, thus Pharaoh actually hardened his own heart to begin with..  Jesus says that the same thing happens to us when we realize that God commands us to do something through His word and we lack a desire to do them.  We harden our hearts against Him.  We can see this in Luke 8…

Luk 8:11  Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Luk 8:12  Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Luk 8:13  They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Luk 8:14  And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

Luk 8:15  But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

God could have snapped His fingers and forced Pharaoh to surrender, but He didn’t.  With the very first plague God could have continued it indefinitely and Pharaoh would have had to surrender, but God only made it last seven days because He did not want to force His will on Pharaoh.  God wanted Pharaoh to release the Israelites on his own free will.  Pharaoh ruled the land and a bunch of people (couple million?) and stood to lose a lot if he gave in easily.  I just watched the movie “The Ten Commandments” on a re-mastered DVD… pretty cool on a 97” screen.  I haven’t seen that movie since I was a kid.  Anyway… Pharaoh obviously had a lot of pride and covetousness, and God foreknew this, but was still willing to give him a chance.  God knew it would not work though, and He also knew that it would harden his heart even more.  This is why God said He would harden his heart.  In other words… God said “I will harden his heart” because He knew that what He was doing was going to force Pharaoh’s heart to harden… not that God intentionally hardened it (not to start with anyway - He did later).  Every time Moses came to Pharaoh it would harden Pharaoh’s heart more.  God gave Pharaoh plenty of chances to do this on his own and he rejected God.  God saw that Pharaoh was spiritually blind and he was going to be a tough cookie and not give up on his own.  This is when God began to actually harden Pharaoh’s heart intentionally.  In the same way if we continue to harden our hearts ourselves, God will eventually harden them for us even more.  There is no doubt that Pharaoh was an evil and cruel man and God used him to show His power, regardless of what choices Pharaoh made… and God did not take his free will away from him.  God has used rulers and governments to carry out His will (Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus the Great, Alexander the Great, etc.), but that does not mean that he has ever predestined anyone to hell.  While God might let evil people rule, He is still sovereign over the rulers of the world.  We learn this from Daniel…

Dan 4:17  This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

I do not see how Romans 9:14-18 could be saying that God has elected some to be saved and some to be condemned in light of the mere fact that it would cause contradiction in Hebrews 5:9 and 2 Thessalonians 1:8, which are very clear as to what they say as we will learn next.

There is another story in the OT that I recently read that shows how God gives us a choice and makes a promise based on obedience.  When this obedience is not met then God will keep another promise He made.  Consider Solomon’s sins and the consequences…

1Ki 11:9  And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice,

1Ki 11:10  And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.

1Ki 11:11  Wherefore the LORD said unto Solomon, Forasmuch as this is done of thee, and thou hast not kept my covenant and my statutes, which I have commanded thee, I will surely rend the kingdom from thee, and will give it to thy servant.

1Ki 11:12  Notwithstanding in thy days I will not do it for David thy father's sake: but I will rend it out of the hand of thy son.

Then consider the promise to Jeroboam…

1Ki 11:31  And he said to Jeroboam, Take thee ten pieces: for thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel, Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee:

1Ki 11:32  (But he shall have one tribe for my servant David's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel:)

1Ki 11:33  Because that they have forsaken me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in mine eyes, and to keep my statutes and my judgments, as did David his father.

 1Ki 11:34  Howbeit I will not take the whole kingdom out of his hand: but I will make him prince all the days of his life for David my servant is sake, whom I chose, because he kept my commandments and my statutes:

1Ki 11:35  But I will take the kingdom out of his son's hand, and will give it unto thee, even ten tribes.

1Ki 11:36  And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David my servant may have a light always before me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there.

1Ki 11:37  And I will take thee, and thou shalt reign according to all that thy soul desireth, and shalt be king over Israel.

1Ki 11:38  And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee, and wilt walk in my ways, and do that is right in my sight, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as David my servant did; that I will be with thee, and build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee.

There are several points to be made here.  Solomon would have his kingdom taken from him because he chose not to obey God and chose not to keep His commandments.  God chose David because David kept His commandments.  Jeroboam was the beneficiary of Solomon’s disobedience and was given ten tribes and the opportunity to reign as long as he so desired, BUT, God put conditions on His promise.  God said, “And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee”.  Jeroboam would have to keep God’s commandments as David did.  God was willing to give Israel to Jeroboam… he stood to be very wealthy in the Lord.  Jeroboam eventually became king and ruled as God promised but he chose to keep his people from going up to the house of the Lord in Jerusalem to make sacrifices…

1Ki 12:27  If this people go up to do sacrifice in the house of the LORD at Jerusalem, then shall the heart of this people turn again unto their lord, even unto Rehoboam king of Judah, and they shall kill me, and go again to Rehoboam king of Judah.

1Ki 12:28  Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

1Ki 12:29  And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan.

1Ki 12:30  And this thing became a sin: for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan.

1Ki 12:31  And he made an house of high places, and made priests of the lowest of the people, which were not of the sons of Levi.

Jeroboam chose to make idols and have his people worship them in fear that they would follow Rehoboam and end up killing him.  Jeroboam continued in his sinful ways until eventually the Lord used him and his people to keep a promise he made to Solomon…

1Ki 13:34  And this thing became sin unto the house of Jeroboam, even to cut it off, and to destroy it from off the face of the earth.

God gave Jeroboam a choice… Jeroboam could have “saved himself” and his people if he would have only kept God’s commandments, but he made bad choices and suffered the consequences, just like Solomon. 

            HEB 5:9 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,” Once again, our dependence must be on Christ and His work on the cross, not on what we can do.  He is the source of salvation.

In between “He” and “the”, which you highlighted, are the words “to all those who obey Him”.  Six very important words.  He is the source of eternal salvation to “all those who obey Him”.  We can not take away any words from the Scripture without corrupting the Scriptures.  It clearly says that “He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation”.  This would clearly indicate to me that if we do not obey Him then He does not become the source of eternal salvation.

Consider the following verses again…

2Th 1:7  And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

As mentioned earlier, clearly we see what will happen to those “that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:”.  Considering you brought up Romans 2 earlier… did you see all those verses in Romans that talk about obedience?  These do not indicate obedience after we are saved but rather before we are saved or resulting in salvation... 

Rom 1:5  By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Rom 2:8  But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Rom 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Rom 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Rom 6:16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 6:17  But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Rom 6:18  Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Rom 10:16  But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Rom 16:25  Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Rom 16:26  But now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

            1PE 1:22-23  Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.”  What did you have to do with your birth?  Did you make it happen?  Did you decide it was time to be born?  Did you even want to be born?  Most babies don’t seem to even like the idea.  But once the process starts, they want to go ahead and finish, and they adjust to their new situation nicely if not immediately.  More on this later.

Your questions have no basis… it is not whether we choose to be “born”…obviously no one chooses to be born Mr. Calvin.  The question would be… whether we choose to be “born again”.  All people are “born” but few are “born again”.  Let’s take this Scripture a little further since you clearly do not understand its meaning…

1Pe 1:22  Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

1Pe 1:23  Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

As mentioned earlier, because of “obedience to the truth” believers have “purified” their “souls”.  Something is required to purify our souls and that is “obedience to the truth”.  The “seed” is the “Word of God” and the “Word of God” is “imperishable”.  This is how we are “born again”, through the imperishable Word of God we learn how to be obedient to the truth and purify our souls (receive forgiveness).  Paul, like Peter, helps us understand that the gospel, through the Word of God, leads us to salvation by our obedience to the faith…

Rom 1:5  By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Rom 16:25  Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Rom 16:26  But now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Peter is showing us basically the same thing… he actually shows us the moment that we purify our souls later in his epistle…

1Pe 3:21  The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Later I will explain how Jesus says we must be “born again” by being “born of water” (baptized).

            MAT 7:21 ¶ "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.”  What is “the will of My Father?”  Is this going back to the notion of salvation by works?  Or is it something different?

This verse clearly says, “but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.”  This could mean anything other than what it says and you offer no scriptural explanation here, although you touch on it later.  No… I do not believe it is salvation by works of ourselves or our own righteousness, or works of the Law, or works we can boast about, these kinds of works do not have any merit with God.  This I understand very clearly, but there are works of faith… works of God.  Works of God are the will of the Father that is referenced here and they are what we must obey, referenced back in Hebrews 5:9.  Consider John 6:28-29 when the unbelieving crowd was seeking Jesus and found Him…

Joh 6:27  Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Joh 6:28  Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Joh 6:29  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Clearly “faith” is a “work of God”.  Now… are you going to argue with Jesus again?  Jesus clearly and indisputably tells us not to “labour” for that which will perish but to “labour” for “eternal life” and He further states that “This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”  This is why any works that God commands which results in salvation would not and could not be a works of ourselves, works of righteousness, or works of the Law, but rather a works of God.  The first and foremost requirement or “work of God” is that we must have “faith”.  We have to believe, we have to do this ourselves, it is a work of God that He requires and commands us to do.

Consider what comes after Matthew 7:21…

Mat 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mat 7:24  Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Mat 7:25  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

Mat 7:26  And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Mat 7:27  And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Mat 7:28  And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

Mat 7:29  For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Jesus says “Many” will say to Him Lord, Lord but He will tell them that he “never knew” them.  This tells me many people will believe they are saved but truly are not.  Jesus goes on to say, “Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man,” (wonder who that wise man is), and later He says, “And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man,”.   This Scripture is part of His “doctrine” that He “taught them” (“the people were astonished at his doctrine”).  Jesus very clearly tells us again that we must “doeth” and what will happen if we do not “doeth”.  There is something we have to do.  The reason He will tell them that He never knew them is because they did not “doeth” the will of the father.  Now go back and consider Hebrews 5:9 again.  Consider the warnings to follow the doctrine that was originally taught… this is it… the doctrine of Christ… we must “do the will of the father”.  Your doctrine clearly does not equal the doctrine that Christ taught because you do not believe we have to do the will of the father… you believe it means something else… what, I do not know… I can not imagine why you would want to ignore this Scripture or try to explain it away to simply make it fit your own man-made doctrine.

            2PE 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”

I have discussed this already, but again, I simply see this verse meaning that God is patient and does not want anyone to perish but wants everyone to come to repentance.  It simply means what it says and we can not take it to mean anything differently.  I understand this would not agree with your doctrine in several ways but God did not inspire your doctrine.  Luther, Calvin, and Knox wrote your doctrine and they were not inspired by God nor authorized to write new doctrine.  However sincere they may have been, they did it for their own selfish desires.  This verse would also support 2 Corinthians 7:10 which I discussed previously.  Not to mention that if God wishes for no one to perish “but for all to come to repentance.” how could this mean that God causes us to repent as you stated earlier?  To support your doctrine it would have to say “not wishing for some to perish but for His elect to come to repentance”.  Unfortunately for you… you can not take a “license” to change the words without corrupting the Scriptures.  Consider the following Scripture in light of 2 Peter 3:9…

Rev 2:21  And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

            1PE 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?”  Does this mean that we are judged based on our own works rather than on the work of Christ?  What about Jesus’ promise in JOH 5:24  "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”  (Note also that there is no mention of the necessity of works, but only hearing and believing.)  Take a close look at the context.

I have already explained this previously but let’s take it a little further.  1 Peter 4:17 would only go to further the proof that those that do not obey the gospel of God will receive the vengeance of God mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9.  Mr. Calvin, what do these verses mean if they do not mean what they actually say?  You have offered no explanation for any of the verses that state we must do the will of the father and obey the gospel.  You have simply quoted one other verse that would appear to have to contradict three other verses.  We both know that Scripture does not contradict itself.  Furthermore, does John 5:24 mention “calling on the name of the Lord” that you mentioned in the beginning of your response?  No, it does not.  Here are your words: “Notice that it says that they will be saved if they “call on the name of the Lord” and “believe in Him,” without reference to baptism.”  I pointed out that you left out that we must also confess as it stated in Romans 10:9 and I presented Scripture that clearly tells us we must also repent.  So maybe I am confused again as to what you believe because initially you indicate “believing” and “calling on the name of the Lord”… now you indicate “hearing” and “believing”… but you also indicate that we contribute nothing but “need” (sin).  Exactly what is it that you believe?  I understood you really do not believe we have to do anything ourselves, that God basically does it all for us, or winds us up like robots and lets us go because we are going to do whatever He wishes anyway.  I repeat… just because every commandment of salvation is not mentioned in every instruction of salvation, (as in John 5:24 and back in Romans 10:9-13, Luke 13:3,5, Acts 17:30, Acts 22:16, and I will mention more later), does not mean that it is not necessary.  It cannot because there is too much Scripture that would contradict itself if it did.  You have just proved this point with your very own words.  I have already provided Scripture that clearly shows that believing (faith) is a work of God.  Who is it that has to hear?  Who is it that has to believe? Who is it that has to have faith?  Who is it that has to repent?  Who is it that has to confess?  WE DO!  Clearly we must do a work of God.  I do not see how that could be any clearer from the Scriptures I have quoted.  Surely you can only agree with this.  We also have to be baptized and it is the most passive work of God that we have to do because someone has to actually baptize us… we obviously cannot baptize ourselves… but it is still something we have to do and I will cover this briefly next and in great detail later on.

Consider the following when Jesus was speaking to the eleven…

Mar 16:15  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Mar 16:16  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

This Scripture parallels the great commission in Matthew 28:19.  The actual Greek Manuscripts for verse 16 read:  “He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, and he that disbelieves shall be condemned.”  Jesus himself clearly stated who would be saved… “He that believes and is baptized”.  Whoever disbelieves is obviously not going to be baptized… which reasons without having to be said.  However, there is no mention of repentance, confession, or calling on the name of the Lord, but we know these works of God are also commanded.  Let’s continue on with the great commission…

Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Mat 28:20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

In the great commission Jesus is commanding the apostles to do something.  He is commanding them to “teach all nations, baptizing them”.  Again this parallels Mark 16:15-16 and Jesus spoke the words.  Are we to call Jesus a liar or say that He really did not mean what He said?  Are we to somehow twist this Scripture around to try and make it mean something other than what it actually says?  I surely do not want to be the one to answer either one of those questions with a “yes” or even a “maybe” or even a “let me show you what Jesus really meant to say”.  I have no reason to doubt the very words of Jesus himself.  Now, do I think believing and being baptized is all that is commanded of us to be saved?  No… I believe we are commanded to obey the gospel and do the will of the father by hearing, believing, repenting, confessing, and being baptized for the forgiveness of sins, just as the Scriptures clearly instruct us to do.  Consider too that Jesus’ mission on earth was to seek and to save that which was lost…

Luk 19:10  For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

In His final instructions to His apostles on earth, why would He have them go out in the world doing things that have nothing to do with saving the lost?  Think about it… it takes time to baptize people; if baptism was not necessary for salvation, the apostles were wasting their time doing things and teaching others to do things that had nothing to do with salvation.  They could spent this precious time covering other parts of the world preaching the gospel to people, having them merely believe, and then moving on quickly to somewhere else.  NOT TO MENTION… why would He bother to give instructions if we are already pre-selected for salvation?   Jesus instructed the apostles to baptize because baptism is part of obeying the gospel and it “doth also now save us” as we learn in 1 Peter 3:20-21.    

  1PE 4:12 ¶ Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you; but to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you may rejoice with exultation.  If you are reviled for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you.  Make sure that none of you suffers as a murderer, or thief, or evildoer, or a troublesome meddler; but if anyone suffers as a Christian, he is not to be ashamed, but is to glorify God in this name.  For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?  And if it is with difficulty that the righteous is saved, what will become of the godless man and the sinner?  Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.”  The judgment for “the household of God” is for our testing (proof).  One way to test a precious metal for impurities is to heat it.  When you do, any impurities present in the metal will separate and rise to the surface.  If no impurities appear when the heat is turned up, the metal is proven under testing to be pure.  Look at what God allowed to happen to Job in Job 1&2.  He allowed Satan to test him to prove that he was the most righteous man on earth.  Note also that Job offered sacrifices in faith (before Moses) knowing that he was depending on God’s grace.

1 Peter 4:12-19… The first part of this is simply explaining that Christians will be persecuted and we should expect such and should endure it and will eventually be glorified if we do endure it.  We can see this again in Romans 8…

Rom 8:17  And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

The latter part (specifically 1 Peter 4:17 and the context), I discussed previously and stand firm in my understanding.  I  will discuss faith later.

A child growing up under such teaching lives in fear….  The grace of God becomes a horror rather than a help.  This is a very broad statement, and not necessarily true.  There is another view of this situation.  If salvation is a gift from God, then it is a blessing that I cannot lose.  God gave it to me, and no one can take it away from me.  On the other hand, if salvation is something that I must earn through my obedience, then when I fail (as all of us do from time to time) then I must earn it again.  However, if the standard is perfection as we have seen then I cannot earn it back again since I have already failed.  Indeed, I cannot earn it to begin with since I have already sinned and fallen short by the time I realize that I need it.  Salvation by grace when properly understood is not a source of fear, but a source of confidence, comfort and freedom.

You said, “If salvation is a gift from God, then it is a blessing that I cannot lose.”  What Scripture says this?  Yes, salvation is a gift of God, but where in the Bible does it say that man can not reject a gift from God?  Do you have to receive a gift?  Of course you don’t.  Was not the garden of Eden a beautiful, practically perfect environment for Adam and Eve?  It was a gift from God, yet Adam and Eve sinned and God took that gift away from them.  Was not the promised land of Canaan a gift from God?

Num 13:2  Send thou men, that they may search the land of Canaan, which I give unto the children of Israel: of every tribe of their fathers shall ye send a man, every one a ruler among them.

When the children of God kept being disobedient, God allowed foreign rulers to come in and take the land from his children and haul them off into captivity.  When we willingly leave God, we reject His gift to us.  While it is true no man can snatch us out of the hand of God, we can reject the gift ourselves by our continued disobedience or turning away from God.

If I had no way of knowing that I was saved or not (chosen by God or not) then I would be worried to death Mr. Calvin.  It would be like a horror story.  If it is by God’s own choice and I have no say so in it then how can I be for certain that He chose me?  I could simply say it is not my fault I am not saved, it is God’s fault.  I am not responsible for my going to hell, God is… He has shown partiality towards me.  It is apparent that “grace only” is a false doctrine and “grace only” is exactly what Satan wants us to believe.  Now… your misstatement of a believer’s obedience unto salvation and the forgiveness of subsequent sins is salient.  I do not “earn” salvation through obedience.  Likewise, when I sin (as a Christian), according to 1 John 1:7-9, I still must obey the will of God in order to avail myself of the continual cleansing power of the blood of Jesus.  I am not “re-earning” anything.  The “standard” of perfection that you mention is not in Scripture.  Nowhere does God call on me to be sinless and perfect.  “Perfection” for me as a Christian is “completeness” and “blamelessness” in Christ, not without sin in myself.  Our confidence, comfort, and freedom, does not come from “unconditional election” and “irresistible grace”, but instead, it comes from trusting in our faithful God who longs to forgive and extend His grace to those who seek Him and walk in His ways.  Consider the parallel on the relationship between grace, mercy, and obedience in the OT and NT…

Isa 30:18  And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the LORD is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him.

Isa 30:19  For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem: thou shalt weep no more: he will be very gracious unto thee at the voice of thy cry; when he shall hear it, he will answer thee.

Isa 30:20  And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:

Isa 30:21  And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.

1Jo 1:7  But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Jo 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jo 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 “Calvin’s teachings blame God for everything and leave man unable to contribute one whit to his salvation.”  This is an interesting statement, and it brings to mind the sacrificial system of the Old Testament.  When a person sinned he was to bring an animal to the door of the tabernacle, offer it to the priest, have the priest kill it and burn the body on the altar.  We know from Hebrews that the priest is a picture of Christ, the Great High Priest.  The door is a picture of Christ as the way into God’s sheepfold according to John 10.  The animal to be sacrificed is a picture of Christ, the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world.  The only thing that is not a picture of Christ is the sinner.  The only thing we contribute to our salvation is the need, our sin.

The only thing we contribute to our salvation is the need, our sin?  There is no way this statement will stand up under scriptural analysis Mr. Calvin.  This theology would have sinners floating around helplessly in need of God arbitrarily choosing to save some.  The need for salvation (forgiveness of sins) is universal among those who know right from wrong (those who are held accountable).  What we contribute to our salvation is ourselves, not our sin.  In obeying the gospel we must die to our self and sin… we must be buried and resurrected in the likeness of Christ (be baptized).  God accomplishes salvation, forgiveness, grace, and mercy, in those who offer themselves to Him through obedience in faith.  He does not want my “sin” contributed to Him.  According to your doctrine we can not even contribute our own faith.  Previously you seem to indicate we must believe and call on the name of the Lord.  You also indicate that faith alone saves us as well as grace alone saves us.  I am still not sure what you really believe.  Either way… if I have no choice in salvation, if I can not make a choice of whether I want to believe or not, then who is at fault?  You would have to say that it is God’s fault because you say that He has already made the choice for us.  You also seem to overlook the fact that in the OT we had no way to get into Christ… now we do… through baptism.  I will discuss all this in great detail later on.  For now though, you say, “We know from Hebrews that the priest is a picture of Christ, the Great High Priest.” and “The only thing that is not a picture of Christ is the sinner.”  Actually, Christians are priests, and Christ is the High Priest…

1Pe 2:5  Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

1Pe 2:6  Wherefore also it is contained in the Scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

1Pe 2:7  Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

1Pe 2:8  And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

1Pe 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

The entire tabernacle and priesthood was a shadow of things to come…

Heb 8:4  For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

Heb 8:5  Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

God has always had a pattern, and the pattern of the tabernacle is similar to the pattern in the New Testament.  In the OT, before one could enter the Holy Place (which was a shadow of the church), he had to wash in the layer, which represents baptism as necessary to enter the church…

1Co 12:13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

However, before washed there had to be a sacrifice, today that sacrifice is Jesus. 

In the Holy Place there was the incense, (prayers of the saints)…

Rev 8:3  And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

There was the table of shewbread, (Lord’s Supper)…

1Co 10:17  For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

There was the golden candlestick (the Word of God which lights the way of the church)…

Psa 119:105  Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

2Pe 1:19  We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

The Most Holy Place represents heaven (where the presence of God is)…

1Ki 8:6  And the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of the LORD unto his place, into the oracle of the house, to the most holy place, even under the wings of the cherubims.

The veil was ripped when Jesus died (the way into the Most Holy Place is now open)…

Heb 10:19  Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

Heb 10:20  By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Heb 10:21  And having an high priest over the house of God;

Heb 10:22  Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

The Outer Court represents the world.  Surely you see the pattern here.  We must be baptized before we can enter into the church… which I will also discuss in great detail later.

          Calvinism rejects:

          That God loves all.  John 3:16 says that God loved the world….  HEB 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.”  This verse says that Jesus tasted death for everyone.  Is that the same thing?  Either way, this is a hard thing for us to understand, particularly in light of the seemingly contradictory statement in MAL 1:2-3  "I have loved you," says the Lord. But you say, "How have You loved us?" "Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the Lord. "Yet I have loved Jacob; but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness." And in ROM 9:10-13 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, "The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."  How can God love the world and hate Esau (and apparently some others also)?  I don’t know, but we shouldn’t blame Calvin for what the Bible says.

I do not blame Calvin for what the Bible says... neither do I exalt Calvin over what the Bible says.  Calvin is factually irrelevant to what the Bible says.  The love of God compelled the sacrifice for all sin of all mankind…

1Jo 2:2  And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

If we love God in return we will obey Him…

1Jo 2:3  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jo 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jo 2:5  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

We are not forcing God to do anything He does not will, we are accepting grace by loving obedience in faith…

1Jo 3:1  Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1Jo 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1Jo 3:3  And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

1Jo 4:9  In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

1Jo 4:10  Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

God did in fact love Esau but simply He loved Esau less.  As I explained earlier, the definition for the Greek work “hated” is “loved less”.  I explained Romans 9:10-13 and Malachi 1:2-3 above.  I do not see how that can be hard to understand.  There is clearly no contradiction in these verses although you say “seemingly” there is.  There has to be an explanation and understanding here Mr. Calvin because the Scriptures do not contradict themselves.  If you believe the Word of God to be infallible, and you find Scriptures that are “seemingly” contradictory, then either the Bible is in error or your interpretation is in error.  I know we both will conclude the latter is true, not the former.  We can know the truth Mr. Calvin… there cannot be a “seemingly” contradictory Scripture that we just can not understand.  Jesus and Paul both state the same truth about understanding and knowing the truth…

Joh 8:30  As he spake these words, many believed on him.

Joh 8:31  Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Joh 8:32  And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Eph 3:4  Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ.

He does not want anyone to perish

          Eze 33 - EZE 33:11  "Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord God, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'”  A judge does not take pleasure in sentencing someone to jail, but he knows that it needs to happen.  To say that someone dies and goes to hell when God didn’t want it to happen begs the question, why didn’t God prevent it?  We cannot look into the mind of God to that extent because of our own limitations.  How can we possibly understand the actions, motives and intentions of a Being with limitless knowledge, righteousness, insight and wisdom?

A judge would sentence a criminal to jail because he uses the standard (criminal code of Alabama) to judge the actions of the criminal.  A judge would not condemn that criminal; he would simply announce the condemnation that the criminal brought upon himself by his actions, based upon the evidence (or deeds).  A judge does not pick people off the street at random and condemn them to jail and then tell them he feels sorry about it.  Likewise, Jesus does not condemn us, but our failure to obey His word (His criminal code -- so to speak) condemns us as I explained earlier (John 12:47-50).  God has done all He can possibly do to save us, except remove our free will.  Now… you say you take no pleasure in sentencing someone to jail but you know it has to happen.  Here is the difference, in your doctrine you teach that “God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass.”  So you teach that God made the man who raped a 12 year old girl commit that horrible act and neither one of them had a choice in the matter.  Then you teach that God foreordained that this horrible rapist (who ultimately was controlled by God) must not only go to jail for the rest of his life, but also to eternal torment.  This was not for something that he chose to do but something God made him do.  Ouch!  This clearly sounds more like a doctrine from the devil to me.  I am curious to know too, where do the Scriptures say that God ordained “whatsoever comes to pass”?  In your comments you also asked why God did not prevent it… exactly, why did God not prevent it?  It is because He allows us to make our own choice.  This is not that complicated to figure out, as He clearly tells us in His word that we can know the truth.  The Scripture clearly teaches us that we are judged by the Word of God and our works.  Consider the following verses…

Joh 5:28  Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Notice “they have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.  Remember “unto” means “resulting in”.

Joh 12:48  He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Notice “according to their works.”

You further asked: “How can we possibly understand the actions, motives and intentions of a Being with limitless knowledge, righteousness, insight and wisdom?”  The Word of God is a revelation of the mind of God.   We can, most certainly know the truth through what He has revealed to us in His word… but we must want to know it and we must seek it out.  God’s Word is the truth…

Pro 9:10  The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Pro 28:5  Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Joh 8:31  Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Joh 8:32  And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Col 2:2  that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's mystery, that is, Christ Himself,

1Ti 2:3  This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,

1Ti 2:4  who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2Ti 2:7  Consider what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.

However… there are some that might not understand it… some will try to distort or contort the Scriptures to lead others away and as a consequence they will fall… as we learn in the following passages…

2Pe 3:14  Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

2Pe 3:15  And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

2Pe 3:16  As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.

2Pe 3:17  Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

2Pe 3:18  But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

I do believe there are things that are a mystery and we will not understand about God but I believe those things are outside of His word.  He has given us all things relating to life and godliness so we can escape the corruption that is in this world…

2Pe 1:3  According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

2Pe 1:4  Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

How can we escape?  Through the knowledge of Him… knowing Jesus is accomplished through obedience to Him… “we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments”…

1Jo 2:3  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Notice also in 1 Peter 3:17 we learn Peter is again warning the beloved to not be led away and fall.

            2PE 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.”  Notice the emphasis I added.  To whom did Peter write the epistle?  2PE 1:1 Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:”  He wrote it to believers.  Therefore, God does not want any believers (and I would contend, the elect) to perish.

So God is delaying the return of Christ until all Christians repent and cease to sin?  Mr. Calvin, once again your doctrine will not hold up to Scripture.  I suppose all of your so-called “elect” cease to sin before their death, and the remaining “elect” who are alive when Christ returns will be without sin.  I don’t think so… Scripture just will not support your misunderstanding of this passage.  I agree that the letter is written to Christians but Peter says, “not wanting any”, and does not add “of you” (the Christians he is writing to).  Is the letter only intended for Christians?  Was Paul going to address his letters specifically to unsaved sinners that he probably didn’t know?  You don’t believe that the Christians that did receive the letters were supposed to share them with the unsaved?  Surely you can see how ridiculous this is beginning to sound.  Does God want “any” Christians to lose their salvation?  Of course not!  Does God want “any” person to be lost?  Of course not!  God wants “all people everywhere” to repent before judgment…

Act 17:30  And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Act 17:31  Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

I discussed this earlier but let’s read this Scripture in context…

2Pe 3:3  Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

2Pe 3:4  And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

2Pe 3:5  For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

2Pe 3:6  Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

2Pe 3:7  But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2Pe 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2Pe 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

We can clearly see that there are some who will question whether Christ will come back.  Peter explains that the Lord is patient with us (man) and is giving us time to repent.  He is giving time for sinners to repent and when Christ does come it will be like a thief in the night.  Now think about what you are saying… as you contend, God would not be worried about the “elect” because they are saved and have nothing to worry about when Christ returns.  If you are the individually so-called chosen “elect” and believe in your own doctrine, then how could you possibly perish, and why would Peter even bring this up?  There would be no need for him to make any such comment intended towards your doctrine’s so-called “elect” or “toward you”.  It is clear that Peter is referring to the lost that do have something to worry about if they do not repent in the amount of time they have to do so.  God wants all men in the world to repent.  Are all men saved?  How can you really believe he is talking about believers only?  Peter obviously did not address the letter to specific sinners… but most of the letters written were addressed to saints and they include appropriate instructions for sinners as well.  I am still dazed that you might somehow believe that the letters the apostles wrote were intended instructions for strictly the saved.  If that is the case then only your doctrine’s so-called “elect” need to pick up the Bible and read it… but really do they need to even do that… it’s not going to matter because they are saved regardless of what they do.  I think I’m getting dizzy.  According to your doctrine, God makes “the elect” believe in Him and then makes “the elect” repent and obey Him.  I am dizzy.  If ‘believers” are “the elect” and God makes “the elect” obey Him, then why did many who believed (those being “the elect”) reject God?  See the following Scripture…

Joh 12:42  Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

Joh 12:43  For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

These men believed because of the evidence before them but they had a choice to seek the praise of men or the praise of God.  They chose men over God.  Notice they “did not confess him”.  Consider also the following …

Heb 4:6  Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience,

Heb 4:7  He again fixes a certain day, "Today," saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS."

            ISA 45:22  "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.”  REV 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.”  There will be believers from every people group in heaven.

I agree.  God is also encouraging everyone from all over to turn to Him and be saved.  He is not encouraging only a select group.

            ACT 17:26-27 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;”  I didn’t get this one because it says that He determined that we would all seek for God.  I know of many people who seek for God in fame, finances, sex, drugs, etc., but never find Him.  Do these verses indicating a “universal invitation” mean that everyone will be saved?  I doubt that you believe that since it is clear from other verses that there will be some people who will not be saved but will be “thrown into the lake of fire.” Rev 20:15  To say that there is a universal invitation does not mean that all will be saved or that God does not choose those who will be saved.  Note what Jesus says at the end of the parable of the banquet.  MAT 22:14  "For many are called, but few are chosen."

I believe I can understand this Scripture if we look at it closer in context…

Act 17:22  Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.

Act 17:23  For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

Act 17:24  God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Act 17:25  Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Act 17:26  And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Act 17:27  That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Act 17:28  For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Act 17:29  Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Act 17:30  And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Act 17:31  Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Paul is explaining to the men of Athens who this “UNKNOWN GOD” is in verses 24-25 and what God has done for everyone in verse 26.  They worshiped in ignorance, as noted in verse 23 and verse 30, this was a time of ignorance and God “winked at” or “overlooked” it. The “times before appointed” is referencing the day of judgment that is mentioned again in verse 31.  Paul explains “That they should seek the Lord” in verse 27.  In other words, men everywhere should seek the Lord, not that they will, but they should.  In verse 27 he continues, “if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:”.  I understand this to explain the ignorance.  It was a time when they did not realize who God was but they knew there had to be some sort of God because of His great creation.  This creation, which we can see, and God being omnipresent, is how He is so near to us…

Psa 19:1  The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

He was right there and they were too ignorant to realize it.  Paul goes on to explain that God has overlooked this ignorance but now commands men everywhere to repent (because He has now provided the propitiation for our sins in Christ Jesus) and on the day of judgment He will judge the world.  I referenced Acts 17:30 earlier.  You should see clearly that God wants everyone to seek Him and He commands everyone to repent.  Why would God command everyone to repent if He has already chosen the so-called elect?  This would not make sense.  This is what your doctrine does to us if we believe in it… it compels us to accept that there is just too much Scripture that we will not understand.  This is not what God’s plan is… He desires everyone to be saved and wants us to know the truth… He does not want us to be confused and without understanding.  The focal point here is that all men can seek God and find Him, however your doctrine teaches that God makes us believe in Him and obey Him. 

You stated, “I know of many people who seek for God in fame, finances, sex, drugs, etc., but never find Him.”  Mr. Calvin, these people who supposedly “seek God” in sex and drugs are not really seeking God, but rather they seek to fulfill their own selfish and sinful desires and motives.  Your statement has no scriptural support.  These people are merely doing what the people did during the time of judges (you should be familiar with this)…

Jdg 21:25  In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

Consider this Scripture in 1 John…

1Jo 2:15  Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1Jo 2:16  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Diligently seeking God requires that we lay aside our own understanding (sex, drugs, fame, fortune… along with Baalism, Paganism, Calvinism, Methodism, Mormonism, Confucianism, Bhuddism, Hinduism, Catholicism, New Ageism, etc., etc.), and replace it with trust in God for proper understanding…

Pro 3:1  My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:

Pro 3:2  For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.

Pro 3:3  Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:

Pro 3:4  So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.

Pro 3:5  Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Pro 3:6  In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Pro 3:7  Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.

Pro 8:1  Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding put forth her voice?

Pro 8:2  She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths.

Pro 8:3  She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.

Pro 8:4  Unto you, O men, I call; and my voice is to the sons of man.

Pro 8:5  O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.

Pro 8:6  Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.

Pro 8:7  For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

Pro 8:8  All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

Pro 8:9  They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

Pro 8:10  Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.

Pro 8:11  For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

Anyone can seek God, but calling it “seeking God” does not necessarily make it so.

You asked, “Do these verses indicating a “universal invitation” mean that everyone will be saved?”  I think you know by now that I do not believe this.  You do (obviously) admit that these verses in Acts indicate a “universal invitation” though.  If God will not allow some people the opportunity to be saved, that would eliminate a universal invitation and it would become an invitation for your so-called “elect” only.  Hmmm… a universal invitation with no possibility of a universal acceptance?  How sad, considering the preciousness of the free gift.  If God foreordained a certain individual to be lost, yet invites him to come to salvation, that can only be seen as cruelty and mockery on the part of God, and that is not a real universal invitation.  Furthermore it would contradict 1 Timothy 2…

1Ti 2:4  who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Now are you going to tell me again how God really does not mean that He “desires all men to be saved”… and tell me how Paul was not really being inspired when he wrote that part of his letter?  Wrestle with it for a while until you figure out some other meaning.  It appears followers of your doctrine are well trained in this area of interpretation.

You referenced Matthew 22:14 at the end of your comments.  Let’s consider that parable…

Mat 22:1  And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

Mat 22:2  The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

Mat 22:3  And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Mat 22:4  Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

Mat 22:5  But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

Mat 22:6  And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

Mat 22:7  But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

Mat 22:8  Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

Mat 22:9  Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

Mat 22:10  So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

Mat 22:11  And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

Mat 22:12  And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

Mat 22:13  Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 22:14  For many are called, but few are chosen.

This parable illustrates the purpose of the church (the saved) and the events surrounding its existence.  The king (God) sends His servants (prophets) to invite them (the Jews) to His son’s (Christ).  It was always Jesus’ intentions for the Israelites to be the first to inherit the kingdom and the Law was intended to bring them to an understanding of the gospel…

Gal 3:23  But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24  Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Most of the invited (Jews) rejected the invitation (they rejected God’s plan of salvation through Christ) and mistreated and even killed some of the servants (prophets).  After about 40 years the king (God) got angry and finally sent his army (the Romans) to destroy them (Jews who rejected), and their city (Jerusalem), which brought an end to their nation…

Rom 10:21  But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Since they (Jews) rejected the invitation, the king (God) then invited as many as could be found (the church is to search everywhere and offer the invitation to all), both bad and good (Jews and Gentiles)…

Rom 9:25  As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

Rom 9:26  And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Again… the king (God) is now inviting everyone to the wedding feast (into the kingdom)…

Mar 16:15  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Rom 1:16  For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

So a few came to the feast (became Christians or professed to be Christians).  The king (God) came in to see the guests (Day of Judgment) and one of them that was at the feast was not clothed properly with a wedding garment (he had not been properly clothed in Christ)…

Gal 3:27  For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Rev 3:5  'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Rom 13:13  Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy.

Rom 13:14  But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.

That guest was speechless (GULP!)… and thus he was cast out into darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (hell).  So we finally understand that many will be called (by the gospel), but few are chosen (because few obey the gospel).  This shows us that many of God’s first chosen people (the Jews), would not be saved.  It also shows that some who refuse to cloth themselves in Christ by baptism will not be saved, as well as those that do enter into the church (into Christ) and do not “overcome” the sin of the world by continuing to “put on the Lord Jesus Christ” will be lose their salvation.  We also learn that the church is the means that God is using to seek and save the lost.  This parable is not good for your doctrine in several ways.  If this parable somehow supported your doctrine we would have a God of love who not only predestines most people to hell (few are chosen), but knowing this He still “dangles” the message of salvation in front of us (as we are “called” by the gospel), yet He condemns those when they respond to the gospel.  That would no doubt be inconsistent with His lovingkindness, righteousness, justice, mercy, and grace.

Now let me leap back and ahead and grab a few of your statements you made and bring them back together right here… here are four statements you made…

1.  “Do these verses indicating a “universal invitation” mean that everyone will be saved?”

2.  “To say that there is a universal invitation does not mean that all will be saved or that God does not choose those who will be saved. “

3.   “All others ignore or fail to take advantage of the invitation.”

4.  “We do have a choice, but are there any limitations or restrictions on that choice?”

Now you read your four statements and think about what you have written.  You admit twice that there is a universal invitation.  One time you say that it does not mean that God will not choose who will be saved.  Another time you admit that some made a choice by ignoring the invitation or failing to take advantage of the invitation.  Yet another time you completely admit we do have a choice and suggest with no limitations or restrictions.  Now according to your doctrine there can be no universal invitation.  Your doctrine says God does not allow everyone the opportunity to be saved because He has chosen certain individuals ahead of time.  Your doctrine says we do not have a choice and that no one can ignore or fail to take advantage of the invitation because we do not do the choosing.  You outright refute your doctrine with your own words.  I may get dizzy before this is over.  Maybe we should make this a no spin zone.

            The loss of eternal life

          Romans 14 – I’m sorry, but I read this chapter and failed to see where it says that a believer can lose eternal life.  However, I am familiar with a few other verses which seem to indicate the opposite.  ROM 8:38-39  For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”  JOH 10:26-29  "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.  "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.  "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.”  Does God give eternal life and take it away again?  How does one lose their salvation?  By committing a sin?  If so, how does one ever gain salvation?  If it is not a gift from God, then it is unattainable since “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”  Rom. 3:23 and ROM 3:10-12 “as it is written, "There is none righteous, not even one; There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one."”

Commenting on the last part here… with man it is impossible but with God it is possible.  Paul is teaching the nature of salvation, allowing insight to understand how all have sinned (Romans 3:23), yet some will be forgiven and inherit the free gift of God (Romans 6:23).  Between those verses Paul discusses obedient saving faith like Abraham had, justification by faith through Christ, and the obedient response resulting in salvation.  Interestingly, he mentions baptism as well.  Now let’s consider what verses in chapter 14 you missed…

Rom 14:14  I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Rom 14:15  But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

No doubt this one is a little difficult to understand.  The following is from a lectureship study on Romans 14 by Lester Kamp, he does a better job of explaining it than I can and it is understandable, reasonable, and in harmony with other Scripture...

"Grieved with thy meat" suggests that the convictions of others have not been respected, and as a result the weak have been influenced to sin.  The Law of love has not been applied.  Such individuals are not walking "charitably" -- that is, with any consideration for the convictions of others.  There is a more important issue than exercising one's freedom in matters which are not essential, which are not matters of faith.  That more important issue is the souls who could be lost because some have insisted on their liberty without regard for the effect that their exercise of freedom will have on those that are weak.  Paul therefore warns, "Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died."  When exercising our freedom in indifferent matters, we must always realize the value of the souls of others and be willing to forego the freedom rather than cause a soul to be lost.”

I do not think we could deny that “brother” in this verse is referencing a Christian, for whom Christ died.  I do not think we could deny that one of these brothers could become destroyed (lost and sent to hell).  Consider 14:20 as well, “destroy not the work of God” refers to one Christian binding something upon another causing that brother to lose faith with God.  We are being warned that we have power in the tongue to drive others away from God, thus fall from grace…

Rom 14:20  For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

Now let’s discuss the other verses you mentioned above that you stated “seemed to indicate the opposite.”  In Romans 8, I believe we have to consider the entire context of that passage to understand what Paul is talking about in verses 38-39… let’s go all the way back to at least verse 28…

Rom 8:28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Rom 8:29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 8:30  Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom 8:31  What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Rom 8:32  He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Rom 8:33  Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Rom 8:34  Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Rom 8:35  Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Rom 8:36  As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Rom 8:37  Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Rom 8:38  For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Rom 8:39  Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul starts out by stating that good things will happen “to them that love God”.  Called according to His purpose means we are called by the gospel according to God’s plan of salvation…

2Th 2:14  Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Therefore those who are saved and love God are “the called”.  Those who love God and obey the gospel will be saved (the called) and God works all to their good.  He foreknew who would and will be “the called” because He looked into the future and knows who they would and will be.  He predestined “the called” (those who He knew would and will love Him) “to be conformed to the image of his Son”.  He did not predestine them to love Him, or some to heaven and some to hell, He predestined those who He foreknew would and will love him (that would the saved who make up “the church”).  In verse 30 Paul shows how God predestined those who He foreknew would and will love Him.  He called them as we note in 2 Thessalonians 2:14.  Those that accepted or accept the call are justified and finally glorified.  Remember what gets those called to the point of glorification though… they love God.  Then Paul starts with a series of questions.  If we love God, good things will happen to us, as Paul stated in verse 28, and God will be on our side, verse 31.  Paul states we can defeat those against us, that God did not spare Jesus, and we can have all things that we need.  God has justified us and we should not fear anyone.  Christ will intercede for us in times of uncertainty and we can endure life’s challenges through Christ who loves us.  We can conquer all these things through Christ.  Paul is “persuaded” (convinced) that God loves His people, “the church” or “the saved”.  God will never not love His people and Paul is more than convinced of this.  I agree that this Scripture shows us that God dearly loves those that are saved and love Him, and good things will happen to us as long as we love Him.  However, this Scripture does not teach us that we will remain saved or that we have eternal security nor that we are unconditionally elected… it teaches the opposite.  The two things missing in verses 38-39 are “you” and “God” and “you” can separate yourself from God.  God will not separate His love from us unless we choose to let Him do so and then it is not God who condemns us… it is ourselves…

Joh 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Joh 12:48  He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Joh 12:49  For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Joh 12:50  And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Now if we go back and read Romans chapter 14, let’s consider that weaker brother that allows an unloving and judgmental brother to drive him away from God.  God did not drive him away, neither did death, life, angels, rulers, the present, the future, powers, height, depth, nor any other creature (including the unloving, judgmental brother).  “No one” is able to snatch them away, but they can walk away.  God does not give eternal life and then take it away, but a Christian can give it away…

2Pe 3:17  Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

2Pe 3:18  But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

If we “grow in grace, and in the knowledge”… we will be able to persevere even if an unloving and judgmental brother attempts to lead us “away”.  Notice though we are “being led away with the error of the wicked” but we “fall from” our “own steadfastness.”  Christian’s lose their own salvation by wandering from the truth.  Consider the OT figure, the children of Israel.  They passed through the Red Sea (water) into the wilderness (walked in newness of life)… but because of subsequent unbelief they did not enter God’s rest…

Heb 3:8  Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

Heb 3:9  When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

Heb 3:10  Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

Heb 3:11  So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Heb 3:12  Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Were they saved from Egypt?  Yep.  Did they lose that salvation by a later rebellion? Yep.  The ten spies “led them away” by their false report, but each individual chose to believe the falsehood instead of the truth (Joshua and Caleb).  They did not grow in the wilderness, they tested God and rebelled (Massah and Meribah).

The next Scripture you mentioned…

Joh 10:27  My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Joh 10:28  And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 10:29  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

I will discuss “pluck” later, but for now consider that we must “follow” Him, not just once, but continually.  If we follow Him, He will give us eternal life.  Let’s look at John 8…

Joh 8:12  Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Jesus said, “he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness,”.  What does it mean to “walk in darkness”?  It is to continually practice sin.  So if we are saved we are obviously following Christ and you say we can never lose our salvation.  If we fall into a habit of sin and continue in this sin, are we still following Christ?  Would you say that there are zero saved people that have fallen into a sinful pattern and  continued in that sin?  Consider the repented sin of 1 John with the willful sin in Hebrews…

1Jo 1:7  But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1Jo 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jo 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Heb 10:26  For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Now back to John 10:29 to discus “pluck”… “and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.”  The Greek word for “pluck” or “snatch” has a definition which means “to seize” or “carry off by force”.  This can only refer to anyone other than your own self.  There is that possibility that we could turn away from God ourselves.  If you lose something or give it away, are you plucking or snatching it from yourself?  Are you carrying it off by force?  Plucking or snatching requires force by someone other than yourself.  You or no other person could take my salvation away but I could fall away or walk away from God by my own choosing.  God can easily pluck our salvation away from us if we continue to be disobedient and turn away from Him.

In response to your questions in that segment, there is no doubt that salvation is a gift of God.  How do we obtain a gift?  We must receive it… or… we can refuse it… it is our choice… is it not?  You even admit later that we do have a choice.

Let’s consider several more verses…

Joh 6:70  Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Joh 6:71  He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Act 1:17  "For he was counted among us and received his share in this ministry."

So what does your definition of “chosen” mean now?  Judas was “chosen” by Jesus.  Your definition of chosen in the context of “many are called but few are chosen” a couple of sections back, could not be right, could it?  Anyway, we see what happened later…

Joh 13:26  Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.

Joh 13:27  And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly

Satan did not have reign over Judas from the beginning… the devil did not enter into Judas until after he was chosen by Jesus, then what does Jesus say later…

Joh 15:2  Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Judas was cut off from Christ.  He was chosen by Christ, he was in Christ, but he was later severed from Christ.  We know he was lost and it was because of his transgressions…

Joh 17:12  While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Act 1:24  And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

Act 1:25  That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

We have a choice to receive the gift when we hear the Word of God (which is able to save our souls), but sometimes we simply can not grasp it or understand it, or for whatever reasons, we reject it.  Sometimes we hear it, believe it, and obey it for a short time and then discard it.  Consider the following Scripture…

Mat 13:19  When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Mat 13:20  But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

Mat 13:21  Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Mat 13:22  He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Mat 13:23  But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

1Co 15:1  Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

1Co 15:2  By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Col 1:22  In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Col 1:23  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Heb 10:26  For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27  But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Heb 10:28  He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Heb 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

2Pe 2:1  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2Pe 2:2  And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

2Pe 2:3  And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

2Pe 2:20  For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

2Pe 2:21  For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

In these verses above and others previously mentioned, we learn there are some who choose not to accept the truth (God’s Word).  We also have people who do choose to accept the truth.  Some of these were chosen by Christ… attached to the vine… believed… received the gospel and stood firm in it… had been reconciled through Christ’s body… had been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift… as well as had received the Holy Spirit… had been sanctified by the blood of the covenant… been bought by Jesus… and/or had escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior.  However, these people did not or will not persevere.  They have either lost, or will lose, their salvation.  Your doctrine would say that these people were never saved to begin with… that they were merely superficial Christians.  Your doctrine would say that the only way they could be true Christians is if they had persevered or do persevere to the end, or kept their faith or keep their faith, to the end.  Now I ask you Mr. Calvin… how do you know you are not a superficial Christian yourself?  How do you know you will or will not persevere or keep your faith until the end?  Your doctrine’s reasoning of perseverance of the saints would indicate to me that the only way we could ever know if we are truly saved is to actually persevere to the end… thus we could really never know if we are saved right now.  If I turn away from God as the numerous examples of Scripture above suggest, then your doctrine is going to tell me that I was really never saved to begin with.  Whew!  What assurance I have.  So tell me, how do you distinguish between a real Christian and a superficial one?  I do not think there is anyway you can because a superficial Christian bares all the resemblance of a true Christian.  According to your doctrine’s reasoning there is really no way you could know for sure if your own conversion was real until your end comes.  If I believe by God’s reasoning then I know I am saved.  Yes it is possible that I may harden my heart and turn away from God thereby giving up what I have, but at least I know it is mine to lose.  My perseverance will depend on God, no doubt, and I have assurance that He will give me the grace to persevere, but, I must receive it and remain faithful to His word.  In your situation you cannot really know if you are even among your so-called “elect”.  Your being a real Christian is contingent upon your perseverance to the end, which you will not know whether you have such faith until the very end because it could be superficial.  Mr. Calvin, your doctrine’s reasoning just would not give me much assurance because it would cause me to wonder if I ever had true faith to begin with.  This is the horror and worry I mentioned earlier.

            The Bible teaches that anyone can respond to God and that God desires all men to be saved.

            This statement was not supported by specific Scripture, so I was unable to examine its foundation.

Surely you are familiar with this Scripture… I will support the statement with Scripture for you…  here is the evidence…

1Ti 2:1  First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,

1Ti 2:2  for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.

1Ti 2:3  This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,

1Ti 2:4  who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 2:5  For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

1Ti 2:6  who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

1Ti 2:7  For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

God “desires all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”  Jesus Christ is the “ransom for all”.  So if God wants all men to be saved why wouldn’t he force everyone to be saved?  Your doctrine of sovereignty would have to say that God is contradicting Himself if He is all-powerful and He unchangeably ordained all events.  He wants all men to be saved, yet refuses to cause all men to be saved.  Mr. Calvin, the truth is that we have a choice, free will, and we choose our eternal destination.  Surely you do not think Paul is lying do you?  Here’s more support for the initial statement…

Mat 11:28  Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Mat 11:29  Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Mat 11:30  For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Rev 22:17  And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come.  And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Mat 23:37  O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Notice in the last passage that even though God wanted Jerusalem to be saved, they chose not to be saved.  It was God’s desire for them to be saved, but they had the choice to reject what God desired and did.  If God is controlling every event without us having any choice, and God wanted them to be saved, how could this happen to Jerusalem?  Exactly, it would not make sense.  Again your doctrine fails the test of scriptural support.

            Total hereditary depravity

          EZE 18:20  "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.”  I’m not sure about the point here, but looking at the other verses under this heading it looks like this is an effort to refute the doctrine of “total depravity.”  More later as I go through the other verses. 

This clearly shows sin is not inherited.  Your doctrine teaches that the son shall bear the iniquity of the father but Ezekiel teaches that the son does not bear the iniquity of the father.  I will believe the inspired Ezekiel over the uninspired John Calvin any day.  Let’s consider this entire chapter because there are several interesting points to be made here… 

Eze 18:1  Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,

Eze 18:2  "What do you mean by using this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, 'The fathers eat the sour grapes, But the children's teeth are set on edge'?

Eze 18:3  "As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "you are surely not going to use this proverb in Israel anymore.

Eze 18:4  "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.

Eze 18:5  "But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness,

Eze 18:6  and does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor's wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period--

Eze 18:7  if a man does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, does not commit robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing,

Eze 18:8  if he does not lend money on interest or take increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and executes true justice between man and man,

Eze 18:9  if he walks in My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully--he is righteous and will surely live," declares the Lord GOD.

Eze 18:10  "Then he may have a violent son who sheds blood and who does any of these things to a brother

Eze 18:11  (though he himself did not do any of these things), that is, he even eats at the mountain shrines, and defiles his neighbor's wife,

Eze 18:12  oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore a pledge, but lifts up his eyes to the idols and commits abomination,

Eze 18:13  he lends money on interest and takes increase; will he live? He will not live! He has committed all these abominations, he will surely be put to death; his blood will be on his own head.

Eze 18:14  "Now behold, he has a son who has observed all his father's sins which he committed, and observing does not do likewise.

Eze 18:15  "He does not eat at the mountain shrines or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or defile his neighbor's wife,

Eze 18:16  or oppress anyone, or retain a pledge, or commit robbery, but he gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing,

Eze 18:17  he keeps his hand from the poor, does not take interest or increase, but executes My ordinances, and walks in My statutes; he will not die for his father's iniquity, he will surely live.

Eze 18:18  "As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was not good among his people, behold, he will die for his iniquity.

Eze 18:19  "Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity?' When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live.

Eze 18:20  "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

Eze 18:21  "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Eze 18:22  "All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.

Eze 18:23  "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

Eze 18:24  "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.

Eze 18:25  "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?

Eze 18:26  "When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.

Eze 18:27  "Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.

Eze 18:28  "Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

Eze 18:29  "But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?

Eze 18:30  "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct," declares the Lord GOD. "Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.

Eze 18:31  "Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?

Eze 18:32  "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

We see this chapter destroys total hereditary depravity and unconditional election.  I am not sure how it could be much clearer than this.

            EZE 28:15  "You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.”  This is a lament against the king of Tyre, a city in the Middle East (Lebanon?) but is believed by some to be a veiled reference to Satan in view of some of the other statements in the passage. EZE 28:13-14  "You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared.  "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.”  The principle is that God rejects the proud, clearly stated in several other passages, especially in the Proverbs.  If I can save myself by my own works or even “contribute one whit to [my] salvation” wouldn’t I be proud of that?  ROM 4:4-5 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.  But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”

Eze 28:11  Again the word of the LORD came to me saying,

Eze 28:12  "Son of man, take up a lamentation over the king of Tyre and say to him, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "You had the seal of perfection, Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

Eze 28:13  "You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The ruby, the topaz and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx and the jasper; The lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared.

Eze 28:14  "You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire.

Eze 28:15  "You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.

Eze 28:16  "By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire.

Eze 28:17  "Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I put you before kings, That they may see you.

Eze 28:18  "By the multitude of your iniquities, In the unrighteousness of your trade You profaned your sanctuaries. Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you.

Eze 28:19  "All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified And you will cease to be forever."'"

It is very clear that this Scripture is comparing the king of Tyre to Adam in Paradise.  The king of Tyre was created sinless, just like Adam was, but he sinned because of the abundance of his trade and therefore was found unrighteous.  Now… put yourself in Abraham’s shoes and look to heaven and exclaim… “Yes, God, you have chosen me and I believe, therefore I will not obey you and go to the place (Mt. Moriah) that you will show me and offer Isaac because I believe that you will save us anyway, and neither of us can contribute one whit.”  Is this the faith that is credited to Abraham as righteousness?  Abraham could not save himself by meritorious works, but he had to obey God in faith in order to receive the gift (Isaac being spared).  Abraham had already sacrificed Isaac to God (in his heart), and God credited this work of faith as righteousness.  Abraham had obedient faith.  You cannot take Paul’s discussion of this and interpret it apart from James’ discussion and the original account in Genesis.  Abraham believed God, not believed in God.  I believe God when He says I am dead in sin but can be saved by His grace through “the faith”, so I did what He commanded for salvation, and I want to continue do what He commanded so that I will not lose my salvation.  I believe God when He says that I must repent of my sins in order for Him to remember them no more, so I obey.  I believe God when He says that I must not be ashamed of Jesus, but confess Him before men, so I obey.  I believe God when He says that I must be immersed in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, for the forgiveness of sins, so I obeyed.  I believe God when He says I must remain faithful until death in order to receive the crown of life, so I will continue to obey.  That is not pride, it is my humble response because I desire to receive that which I cannot obtain on my own.  It is prideful when we dictate to God the terms upon which He will save us.

            MAT 18:3 and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.”  MAT 19:14 But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."   I assume that the conclusion here is that children who have not reached a certain age (popularly the “age of accountability”) are sinless.  I have raised four children, and experience has given me far more support for the doctrine of total depravity than for the notion that children are sinless.  What about you?  More on this under II Sam. 12:23 below.

Mat 18:1  At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

Mat 18:2  And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

Mat 18:3  And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 18:4  Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

So in other words your experience with your children overrides God’s Word?  That is a pretty bold supposition.  You believe all children are born evil, depraved and lost.  Now tell me… where is there love, goodness, mercy, justice, righteousness, in a God who would allow a child to be born and die one day later to be condemned to hell for sin because He arbitrarily did not elect him?  There must be consistency in the attributes of God or else He cannot be righteous.  Actually the “age of accountability” is not considered popular because it is believed among the “few” that will find the way.  I am curious to know, how did you know the mind of your children when they were infants or very young?  Were they aware of right and wrong, choosing wrong and therefore acting in rebellion against God?  Maybe according to your extra sensory perception but not according to the Scriptures.  Children may not be born perfect but they are born innocent.  When we reach the age that we know right from wrong we must be “converted”… this parallels being “born again”.  Of course I cannot turn back time any more than I can re-enter my mother’s womb.  Both terms however, are figures for a new life in Christ… returning to pristine… justified.  Jesus told Nicodemus that we must be “born again” and here He tells us we must be “converted” or “born again”.  Indeed this Scripture shows us that children are not totally depraved… otherwise why would the kingdom of heaven belong to such as these?  Consider how Jesus sums up the discussion with the latter part of the verse… “ye shall not enter the kingdom of heaven.”  Instead of questioning who will be the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, we had better be questioning whether we will get in at all.

            ECC 7:29  "Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices."  God did make man upright, sinless.  That would be Adam.

God made men (plural) upright which means “straight or right and innocent before God”.  Adam is only one man.  But “they” (again plural) sought out many devices (things to make us happier or things that are sinful).  Men are initially made right but at some point in time becoming sinful, however, not born sinful.  “Men” and “they” equals “mankind”… not Adam.  (OOPS!)

            2SA 12:23  "But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."  David does not say how he knows this to be true, but perhaps he was aware of the principle behind 1CO 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.”  When you put these two verses together it seems that young children are saved or unsaved in some fashion based on the faith of their parent(s).  How can I square this with the need for faith in Christ?  I cannot say I fully understand this concept.  Perhaps God does not allow non-elect children of believers to die at an early age and the same for elect children of unbelievers.  Regardless, I am unwilling to take this one statement by David and use it to paper over a large number of verses which support the doctrine of total depravity.  I will try to give you some of those verses in a section below entitled BEFORE SALVATION.

You sure do seem to go to extreme philosophical lengths to avoid an obvious conclusion.  David knew his infant son was with God because his infant son had no sin to separate him from God.  Isaiah shows us that we arrive at a point where we know to refuse evil and choose good…

Isa 7:16  For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Isa 7:17  The LORD shall bring upon thee, and upon thy people, and upon thy father's house, days that have not come, from the day that Ephraim departed from Judah; even the king of Assyria.

What about these “little ones” and “your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil”?

Deu 1:39  Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

Everyone that lives long enough will arrive at a point in age where they do know good from evil and at such time will choose evil (sin).  David knew these things from God’s Word and he relied on this in his statement.  There is no room for “perhaps” when understanding Scripture… especially Scripture that deals with our salvation.  There is truth and we can know the truth and we do know the truth in this Scripture.  Now let’s consider 1 Corinthians 7:14 in context and see if I can help you understand the false concept you have…

1Co 7:10  And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

1Co 7:11  But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.

1Co 7:12  But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

1Co 7:13  And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

1Co 7:14  For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

1Co 7:15  But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.

1Co 7:16  For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

Paul is answering a possible thought of some that might suggest that because the husband or wife is unbelieving that it not sufficient enough reason for the believing one to leave the other.  To sanctify is to “set apart” or to “separate to a sacred use or relation” and I cannot see in anyway that this means internal sanctification or salvation, because it would contradict what Paul later says in verse 16.  Paul is using this term to explain that the believing husband or wife might have a sanctifying influence (by example) on the unbelieving other.  It is extremely clear that there is no way to know if the believing will save the unbelieving.  In reference to “else were your children unclean;” would indicate to me that if their marriage was not legitimate then the children would be unclean or illegitimate.  Consider the following Scripture…

Neh 13:22  And I commanded the Levites that they should cleanse themselves, and that they should come and keep the gates, to sanctify the sabbath day. Remember me, O my God, concerning this also, and spare me according to the greatness of thy mercy.

Neh 13:23  In those days also saw I Jews that had married wives of Ashdod, of Ammon, and of Moab:

Neh 13:24  And their children spake half in the speech of Ashdod, and could not speak in the Jews' language, but according to the language of each people.

Neh 13:25  And I contended with them, and cursed them, and smote certain of them, and plucked off their hair, and made them swear by God, saying, Ye shall not give your daughters unto their sons, nor take their daughters unto your sons, or for yourselves.

Nehemiah commanded the Jewish men to separate from their wives because they were unclean.  Notice he also commanded them to sanctify the Sabbath day.  Consider what else Paul says…

1Ti 4:4  For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

1Ti 4:5  For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Even food is sanctified by the Word of God and prayer.  Now maybe you can understand why you did not understand your concept, since it was not a true concept to begin with.  So in light of your false concept, maybe you can put this statement by David on paper now.  Furthermore, you will not be able to square this with “faith in Christ” because what you really need is “the faith of Christ”. 

You did skip a few verses on the outline in this section on “total depravity”…

Jam 1:12  Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

Jam 1:13  Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.

Jam 1:14  But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.

Jam 1:15  Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

I think this Scripture shows us a couple of things that would not agree with your doctrine.  Notice “for once he has been approved” in verse 12… if we are individually chosen before time then are we not already approved?  Next we notice clearly that we bring sin on ourselves rather than being born in sin.  It is when “lust” (better understood as the principle of a corrupt nature) is conceived, sin enters into us.

            If we inherit sins, then whose sins did Adam inherit?

            Now this sounds like a flippant question.  All you have to do is look at Genesis 3 to see that Adam created his own sin.  God placed Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.  They were without sin at that time.  They were under what has long been called the Covenant of Works.  The concept is simple.  God told them what they should not do.  As long as they obeyed, everything was OK.  When they disobeyed, they were marked for death.  Satan deceived Eve, tricked her into eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.  Nowhere does it say that Adam was deceived.  Rather, he made the conscious, knowing decision to sin.  This is later referred to in Romans 5 as sinning “in the likeness of Adam.”  Now, if there is a problem with the doctrine of original sin, you need to read Romans 5 carefully. 

Why is this question “flippant”… because it nails the point intended?  God is no respecter of persons Mr. Calvin, and Adam was just like all men are today.  Where does the term “covenant of works” appear in Genesis?  It may have been called this by men for a long time, but it was not called this by God in His word.  Adam and Eve were under the same circumstances as we are, the Word of God.  How did they know what to do and from what to abstain?  How did Cain and Abel know about sacrifices… by faith…

Heb 11:4  By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

And we know that faith comes by hearing God’s Word…

Rom 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

God told them, just as He always has and always will.  You defeat your own argument by acknowledging that “sinning in the likeness of Adam” is deliberately choosing to sin.  By Adam’s free will, he gained knowledge of good and evil and the consequences come down to us.  What was the forbidden tree?  It was the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil”.  Prior to a person’s knowledge of good and evil, there can be no sin. 

I have pulled out a few verses here:  ROM 5:12  Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned….

ROM 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. ROM 5:15  But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.

ROM 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

ROM 5:18 ¶ So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

ROM 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

There is an interesting clue here about what is going one, and it introduces a doctrine known as federalism.  It is in Rom. 5:14  “Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come”  As you can see from the contrast between the sin/transgression of the one and the righteousness of the One, the fact that Adam was acting as our federal head when he sinned thereby visiting his sin on his offspring, so Jesus was acting as our federal head when He lived righteously, thereby giving His offspring an inheritance of righteousness before God.  In similar fashion children benefit from or suffer for (in an earthly sense) the righteousness or sins of their earthly fathers.  This Scriptural principle applies in all authority relationships, marriage, government, even employment (the modern day equivalent of master/slave.)  I might not like or even fully understand this doctrine of original sin, but the Bible says it pretty clearly.

Adam is the “firstborn of creation” and Christ is the “firstborn of re-creation”…

Col 1:18  And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Adam is the progenitor of the human race, Christ is the progenitor of the saved.  Adam brought sin and death, Christ brought forgiveness and eternal life.  Adam’s bride was taken from his side as he slept while Christ’s bride (the church) was figuratively taken from His side (from where His blood flowed) during His sleep in the tomb.  Satan deceived and seduced the bride of Adam, and Satan deceives and seduces the bride of Christ into apostasy.  Adam is unto death, Christ is unto life.  Thus Adam is a “type” of Christ.  The righteousness of God is revealed not in the fall of mankind into sin and death, but in the remedy God has provided in Christ.  We can not find this righteousness in original sin, inherited sin, or total depravity.  Paul is not teaching that we inherited sin but rather that sin and death came through Adam, just as God promised it would.  Paul is showing us that God is not unfair to allow sin and death through Adam when we factor in Christ.  Paul summarized this Scripture in Romans when he made the following statement to the Corinthians…

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

So can you tell me now whose sins did Adam inherit, and the angels… and Jesus… and what about the Virgin Mary?  That’s right… no one’s… neither do we.  Yes, we sin “in the likeness of Adam” but he was not born of sin; he created his own sin and was made aware of sin by his conscious, so are we, “in the likeness of Adam”.  We are not born of sin but rather create our own sin and are made conscious of it by the Word of God.  I agree that because Adam sinned we also will sin, but only when we understand what sin is.  Death reigned because this was the consequence of Adam’s sin… and you should note clearly that “even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam” would indicate that there were some who had not sinned, thus they could not have been born in sin.  These people would suffer death but some had not sinned.  Children may  suffer physical death, whether they sin or not, just as we all will suffer physical death regardless, but those not responsible (infants, children not reaching the age of accountability, mentally incapable, etc.) will not suffer spiritual death.  Nowhere in the above Scripture does it say that we are born sinful.  The condemnation is death, not sin, to ALL Adam’s race.  In the same way as Adam condemned us to death, we have someone who can bring us to life, and that is Jesus Christ.  The atonement of Christ provides conditions for the forgiveness of ALL sins.  Furthermore… in verse 19 we can clearly see that “many” were made sinners… not all, but “many”, which would indicate that those that are able to sin will indeed sin.  We will sin once we are responsible enough to sin because of Adam’s sin and we will all physically die as a result of Adam’s sin, but we are righteous because of the obedience of Christ until we do sin, and then if we meet the conditions set forth by God to die to those sins we can receive forgiveness of those sin.  Now I am very curious, how can the Bible say this “pretty clearly”, yet you not “fully understand” it?  That is an oxymoron isn’t it?  Your comment reminds me of the beginning of an ole oxymoron saying I memorized when I was a kid that has stayed with me ever since… “I come before you and stand behind you to tell you a story I know nothing about.”  Obviously if you do not fully understand it then the Bible is not all that clear to you.  I think what might actually be the problem with your not liking or understanding the doctrine of original sin is because the Scriptures do not support it.  In order to use these verses you are using to support “total depravity”, you will have to be consistent and follow through, but you cannot do this for obvious reasons.  If we inherited “sin” from Adam, then by the same reasoning and interpretation method that you use, we inherit “sinlessness” from Christ.  I believe both of us will agree this cannot be true.

BEFORE SALVATION

ROM 5:6-10  For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.  For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.  But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.  Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.  For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.”  Before we were saved we were “helpless,” “sinners,” and “enemies.”  We could not move from that point to children of God on our own initiative or effort because:

EPH 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,” and a dead person cannot help himself.

Surely you do not expect me to believe that “dead” in this verse means physically dead.  This is spiritual death which means being separated from God.  These verses do not support that we are born sinful.  I have already agreed that we will all sin at some point of responsibility, but I not any of the Scripture you have presented proves we are born sinful.  When we do become dead in our sin we can be made alive by dying to sin and the instructions are laid out for us in Romans chapter 6… where we learn all about dying to sin and being baptized to a new life in the likeness of Christ.  There is no doubt we are totally helpless in sin and we cannot accomplish salvation on our own merit or power.  We must have Christ.  Scripture that teaches us we are “dead” in sin (and again this obviously means spiritually dead), does not negate the overwhelming call of the Lord to obedience in faith.  By your same logic… your dead person would be incapable of “hearing”, incapable of formulating a thought, therefore incapable of “faith”.

Jesus did not want his followers to be totally depraved.  Little babies are pure and innocent… as discussed previously…

Mat 18:3  And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

How can we be born and immediately our mind does wicked works?  The following would not make sense…

Isa 7:14  Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isa 7:15  Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

Isa 7:16  For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

Col 1:21  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

God said that “the imagination of a man’s heart is evil from his youth”.  If a man’s heart becomes evil in youth, then it must be pure before youth… God did not say “evil from his birth”…

Gen 8:21  And the LORD smelled a sweet saviour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

I believe John Calvin relied too heavily on Augustine and other church fathers for his doctrine of total depravity than he did the Scriptures.  You have only given me verses that show we are sinners before we are saved, not when we are born.  I have given you verses that show we are not born sinful.  Hopefully you will agree that we are indeed NOT born sinful.  I believe you will have to call Jesus a liar to believe anything differently or claim that we can not understand the Scripture, as is a popular belief among many Calvinists followers.

Unconditional Election

          1PE 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure.  These words are used by opponents of the doctrine of election to negate other Scripture and the obvious meaning of the words.  In order to see this it is important to see what other passages say about foreknowledge, or more particularly, knowledge.

God foreknew who the chosen would be, who would obey Jesus Christ (the gospel).  They were sanctified (set apart) by the Spirit (through God’s Word) because they obeyed the gospel.  This is not unconditional.  I have already discussed this “chosen” meaning that your doctrine claims.  I hope you are past this by now, but in case you are not I will reply to your comments unless I have already addressed them previously.

          MAT 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.  "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'”  Clearly Jesus is not saying that God did not know who they were.  He was saying that God did not know them on a different level, a level that equates with the Old Testament concept of “yada,” a special intimate knowledge often used in terms of the marriage relationship where a husband “knows” his wife in the most intimate way.

I am not reading this verse in that Jesus is saying God does not know them… obviously God’s knows them.  I explained it previously but again, there is no unconditional election here.  Those who do the will of the father will enter the kingdom of heaven.  The will of the father is to obey the gospel… as explained previously with several passages.  To reiterate in the same way Jesus does in the later verses… they did not “doeth” the will of the father, therefore they will not enter heaven.  There is something we have to do to enter the kingdom of heaven, therefore there are conditions we must meet.  It says it right there in the Scripture… you should consider accepting what it really says.  Consider again who will be lost…

2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Clearly it is those that “know not God, and that obey not the gospel”.  Now why do they not know God…

1Jo 2:3  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jo 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

How is this intimate relationship formed…

Joh 14:23  Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

When I love Jesus enough to obey His word He and God will make Their “abode” with me.  Those who are condemned may know enough to call Jesus “Lord, Lord”, but they never entered the covenant relationship through loving obedience in faith.  You are going to have to contort, distort, and ignore Scripture, which is what you are doing with your doctrine, to rely upon this Scripture to teach unconditional election.  Let me ask you… who is the “wise builder”?  The one God predestined as the so-called “elect”?  Nope!  It is the one who hears and does what Jesus says.  The way is open, yet “strait”.  Jesus did not teach that the gate is narrow and God excludes most… but rather few choose to enter (“few there be that find it”).  We have to “find it” Mr. Calvin.

Similarly Jesus used the same concept of knowledge in an exchange with His critics in JOH 8:19 And so they were saying to Him, "Where is Your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither Me, nor My Father; if you knew Me, you would know My Father also."”  He said that they did not know Him, even though they knew who He was, who His parents were, where He was from, what He was teaching, etc.  Nevertheless, they did not know Him in this special, intimate way that they would if they were saved.  God knew His people that way before the world was created, and we come to know Him in that way after we have been saved.  So to say that God foreknew His people before the world was created does not at all mean that He knew what they were going to choose and acquiesced in their choice.  More later.

Mr. Calvin… this passage does not say anywhere nor does it indicate anywhere that God does not foreknow what choice we will make.  I know you do not doubt His omniscience, so you must be saying that He knows what we will choose but simply does not have to consent or submit to our choice.  So you admit that we do have a choice… and you admit it again later.  Anyway… this passage has nothing to do with unconditional election… you are really wrestling with this Scripture.  Jesus is simply answering the scribes and Pharisees here.  Jesus said they did not know Him or God… He did not say He did not know them, and surely they were not casting out demons in His name, prophesying in His name, or performing miracles.  We cannot arrive at your conclusion from the context of this Scripture and it has nothing to do with Matthew 7:21.  We do learn something later though after Jesus continued with His teaching…

Joh 8:30  As he spake these words, many believed on him.

Joh 8:31  Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

Joh 8:32  And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

They believed but they had to do something to truly be His disciples… they had to “continue” in His word.  I also believe we can not make the point any clearer on how we know that we know Him…

1Jo 2:3  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jo 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jo 2:5  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Otherwise… I could not know God and He not know me (your doctrines “elect”).  This theology would directly contradict several verses, but mainly…

Joh 14:23  Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

The standard for judgment is that I know God, which is eternal life…

2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Joh 17:3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Consider the Greek word “meno”… which means “abide”, “remain”, “dwell”, “continue”.  We see it in the noun form in “rooms”, “dwelling places”, “abiding places”, and poorly translated as “mansions”.  Now consider John 14:2 in various translations…

Joh 14:2  In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?

Joh 14:2  In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Joh 14:2  "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

Now verse 23 again…

Joh 14:23  Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Jesus clearly said He and God will make Their “abode” with the one who “continue” to love Them and obey God’s Word.  Continue in this thought as you read the following passages…

Joh 15:4  Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Joh 15:5  I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Joh 15:6  If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Joh 15:7  If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Joh 15:10  If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

1Jo 2:6  He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Jo 2:14  I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

1Jo 2:17  And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

1Jo 2:24  Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

1Jo 2:27  But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1Jo 3:6  Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jo 3:24  And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

2Jo 1:9  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Also consider the combination verb “hupomeno” which means literally “to remain under” and is translated “perseverance”…

Rom 5:3  And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;

You see… the faithful Christian will remain (abide) in Christ and remain even under trial and tribulation… he will persevere.  Where is the trial if you can not possibly fail to remain under?  Consider all the above Scripture Mr. Calvin…it absolutely nails the lid shut on “once saved always saved” or should I say “perseverance of the saints” per your doctrine’s definition of the same.

            JOH 17:17 "Sanctify them in the truth; Thy word is truth.  I’m not sure how this verse advances the argument against election or shows that God only “chooses” us after He knows ahead of time that we will choose Him.  This verse indicates that Gods in the process of conforming believers to the likeness of Christ by the use of His word.

I am not sure where you get the idea that anyone has indicated that God only “chooses” us after He knows ahead of time that we will choose Him.  God is all-knowing, therefore, He must know what choices we will make in our life.  God plan of salvation is that those who “doeth” His will and obey the gospel will be saved.  He knows who will “doeth” His will because He is all-knowing.  Anyway, this passage is referring to the apostles… which He sent into the world to preach the gospel… and there is more to be learned here as well…

Joh 17:1  These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

Joh 17:2  As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Joh 17:3  And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Joh 17:4  I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

Joh 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Joh 17:6  I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Joh 17:7  Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

Joh 17:8  For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Joh 17:9  I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Joh 17:10  And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

Joh 17:11  And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Joh 17:12  While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Joh 17:13  And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

Joh 17:14  I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Joh 17:15  I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Joh 17:16  They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Joh 17:17  Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Joh 17:18  As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

Joh 17:19  And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

God gave Jesus power or authority over “all flesh” (all mankind).  He therefore has the authority to give eternal life.  Jesus explains what eternal life is… “that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”  By the authority given to Him, Jesus chose the apostles and presented the truth (God’s Word) to them and they kept it… “and they have kept thy word”… as well as they “believed”.  Jesus kept hold of all of apostles that God granted Him, except of course, “the son of perdition” (Judas), who lost his salvation because of his sin.  He is asking God to set them apart through the truth.  In the same way, by the Word of God (the truth) we can be set apart, and it is not because He has already elected to set us apart, but because we believe (obey the gospel) and keep His word, this is how we “know” Him… we have kept His commandments. 

I think your interpretation method actually violates the “truth”.  Considering John 17:17… also consider…

Psa 119:160  Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

Psa 119:160  The sum of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous ordinances is everlasting.

The “sum of Your word is truth” and consider also…

Act 20:27  For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Act 20:27  "For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God.

You cannot be dismissive of complimentary and supplementary Scripture any more that you can accept “seemingly contradictory” Scripture. 

Follow me through this thread if you will… 

We are set apart by God’s Word...

Joh 17:17  Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

…which we can know, and that “word” which is “truth”, can make us free…

Joh 8:32  And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Faith comes by hearing that “word”…

Rom 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

…and we purify ourselves and are born again by obeying that “word”…

1Pe 1:22  Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

1Pe 1:23  Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Mat 7:24  Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

If we love God and continue in His “word” we are indeed His…

Joh 8:31  Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

If we love Jesus we will keep His “words” and He and God will make Their “abode” with us…

Joh 14:23  Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

We can be certain that we know God by obedience to His “word”…

1Jo 2:3  And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

…but we are liars and the “truth” is not in us if we claim to know Him without obedience to Him…

1Jo 2:4  He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

We may do “religious things” and have an outward appearance of religion and speak “religious words”…

Mat 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

…but if we do not do His will then He will not claim us…

Mat 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mat 7:26  And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

…because we have denied Him by being ashamed of His “words”…

Luk 9:23  And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Luk 9:24  For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

Luk 9:25  For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

Luk 9:26  For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

When Christ returns, flaming fire of judgment will come upon all who do not know Him and who have not obeyed the gospel…

2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Because of His foreknowledge and omniscience, God knew that the sacrifice of Jesus would not be in vain for the few who would be sanctified by the truth…

Eph 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:6  To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Eph 1:7  In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Eph 1:8  Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

Eph 1:9  Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Eph 1:10  That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Eph 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Eph 1:12  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Eph 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

1Pe 1:18  Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

1Pe 1:19  But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1Pe 1:20  Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

1Pe 1:21  Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

1Pe 1:22  Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

1Pe 1:23  Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Now you can wrestle with Scripture all day long but you will not find any Scripture that will contradict this “thread” if you properly take them into context and view them in light of ALL Scripture. 

            HEB 5:8-10 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.”  The idea advanced by this verse is that only those who obey Jesus by obeying all the things He has said are saved.  However, this reading causes the statement to be self-contradictory.  How is He the source of their salvation if it is their obedience which saves them?  The only reading which makes sense is that their obedience is believing in Him and trusting in Him for their salvation.  You can’t have it both ways.  Either salvation is through obedience or it is by grace.  Scripture is clear on this point as well.  Consider what it says in ROM 10:1-5 Brethren, my heart is desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. For not knowing about God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.”  The implication is clear and clearly stated in other Scripture already cited that one who seeks to be saved by his own works and fails is doomed by that practice.  This passage in Romans goes on to say in ROM 10:8-13 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart"-- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call upon Him; for "Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved."  Belief is the key to salvation according to this verse.

I discussed these verses in the beginning of this discussion and I believe it is clear how I explained it.  I also explained how you missed on this point.  You are choosing to ignore that we must “confess”, which you seem to indicate earlier is necessary.  Then later you said all we have is the “need”.  Now you say we need to believe.  Are you really sure what we need to do Mr. Calvin?  We receive grace through obeying the gospel.  Part of obeying is faith… faith is from us… grace is from God.  Christ is the “author” (from Manuscripts) of salvation and the fact that we have to obey the gospel does not eliminate Him being the “author”.  Now, you say that the only way to read this verse is that “their obedience is believing in Him and trusting in Him for their salvation.”  I thought you said we could not have it both ways.  Believing is part of our obedience, you just stated so.  Does God save those who do not obey the gospel?

2Th 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

I think I might understand now why you state we can not fully understand some things.  It would have to be true that we could not understand a lot of Scripture if your doctrine was accurate.  No doubt we would have to ignore a lot of Scripture.

            HEB 10:19-22 Since therefore, brethren, we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.”  This verse stops short of saying that baptism is necessary for salvation.  Many Christians hold to the doctrine of believer baptism or as Charles Stanley has stated it, that baptism is the first act of obedience for someone who has been saved.  That does not say that we are saved if we are baptized.

I would believe that this clearly indicates that our heart is cleansed by the blood of Christ and our body is sanctified by water baptism and is further supported by the following Scripture…

Heb 10:10  By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb 10:22  Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

We are set apart through the blood of Christ and our sins are forgiven by the washing of our bodies.  We must be washed (baptized) with water…

Act 22:16  And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Tit 3:5  Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

We believe and repent because of the preaching of the gospel.  The Holy Spirit works through the Word of God and renews us, but does not compel us to believe and repent.  Salvation is then promised after being baptized by water…

Rom 6:1  What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Rom 6:2  God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Rom 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

We are baptized into death with Him by being immersed into water, then we are raised (emersed) into a newness of life by being raised up out of the water.  We are planted together in the likeness of his death and will also be in the likeness of His resurrection, both through water baptism.  I will discuss this in much greater detail later.  However, I would like for you to show me where in Scripture that baptism is the first act of obedience for someone who has been saved.  You cannot show me because it is not found anywhere in the Bible.  The ole saying that was created by man… “Baptism is an outward sign of an inward change.” (or something to that affect) is of human philosophy and unscriptural.  You cannot find it in the Bible.  You would have to wrestle with the Scriptures to get any Scripture to mean this.